Tragedy in America

[Dave]

It appears that there has just been a horrific fire in an American nightclub, with multiple fatalities, that was started by pyros used by a band.

 

I have put direct links to articles on a couple of web sites below. Please read them.

 

CNN web site

 

BBC news web site

 

I don't think any further comment is helpful at this stage.

[Guest lightnix]

UPDATE

 

According to the March issue of Access All Areas, a civil lawsuit has been launched on behalf of the families of two of the people killed (the death toll now stands at 99, with 180 injured).

 

The wrongful death suit names fourteen defendants, including the clubs owners, the band and their tour manager, the local fire inspector and the company who manufactured the polyurethane foam soundproofing.

 

Investigators say that such foam is twenty time more flammable than wood and emits a thick, toxic smoke. The club owners say that they were unaware of this and that the fire inspections failed to pick up on the material in question.

 

A further dispute is underway, involving lawyers for the club and the band. The band lawyers say that the tour manager was given verbal permission to use pyros, during a telephone conversation with the clubs owners a week before the show. The clubs lawyers admit there was a 'phone call, but deny that the issue of pyrotechnics was ever raised.

 

Investigations by local, state and federal authorities continue and the City of Boston has now banned the use of pyrotechnics inside all night clubs.

 

While the final conclusions have yet to be drawn, the incident surely highlights the need for consistent, coherent and all-encompassing health and safety policies at all venues, along with the need for all agreements and contracts to be made in writing and signed by all relevant parties.

[Ian Ferguson]

Is it time we had a register of stage pyro technicians that local authorites and fire officers could use to check the experience of the technician in charge before authority for the use of pyros is given?

[Ben]

But who maintains this register and who has the say of who can be on it?

a very good idea but how would it work?

that is exactly the sort of thing that the ABTT (or is that still a swear word in here???) should be dealing with in my opinion., but as thats unlikly to happen, how would it work? anyone can set it up, I could do that in 20 mins but how do I know if somone is compatent to be on it???

 

funny, this is having a vague "risk assesments, how do we prove compatence" ring about it.

 

id be really interested on your ideas of how to set up and maintain such a registry, and would be happy, if no one else has the time/effot, to set it up.

 

Ben

[Spock]

Although there would inevitably be a conflict of interest, could not the pyro manufacturers keep a register of who had attended (and passed) their safety courses? That would at least go some way to showing competance.

[Ian Ferguson]

I think that any register should be independant of manufacturers, but the area of stage pyrotechnics is so specialised that I think it would need to also be independant of firework technicians as the risks using pyrotechnics indoors and on stages are very different from those at a firework display.

 

I think that a specialist group should be able to maintain a record of experience and training of individuals without a lot of effort.

 

The question of competance is another matter, perhaps just providing people like the fire officers with details of training and experience would be sufficient, it would certainly be far better than "Here's Fred he does the Pyro".

[Ben]

the problem would be ensuring all info given is correct, its very easy to say I have been trained, without ever having been so.

I could set up a register in about 30 mins that would allow people to register info and alow others to request this info about any individual. to do this on the internet I could do it with no charge to anyone, the problem comes with including phone lines, adn postal charges, this becomes a company and then a charge would have to be put in place to cover costs.

but agan, how do you check all info given without spending alot of time and money doing so?

also it would have to be such that anyone involved in alowing tohe use of the pros and hireing those to use the pyros would have to be aware of the register and how to use it.

as I said setting it up is not hard at all its how the logistics of it would work that needs thought.

this sort of idea is perfect for keeping us all safe from the "cowboys" out there and would benifit from suport of an astablished body such as the ABTT.

 

if anyone has any way of making it work without suport then please let us know and im sure there will be lots of us who would love to make entertainment wold safer for us all.

 

answers on a postcard

Ben

[Dave]

Anyone know anything about this lot?

 

Association of Stage Pyrotechnicians

 

 

Although I personally have no objection to (for instance) compulsory training and licensing of pyro operators, provided that it was readily available at reasonable cost, I do wonder how many "cowboys" are out there?

 

Likewise, I've never heard of any accidents in this country involving theatrical pyro. Compare that to regular fireworks!

 

Anyone got any horror stories to share?

[Ian Ferguson]

Anyone know anything about this lot?

 

Association of Stage Pyrotechnicians

I have found out a little, it is currently being formed by people working in the professional stage pyrotechnic industry and they hope that it will eventually be administered and run by it's membership.

 

 

Its proposed Mission Statement is to:

 

Formalise a group of like minded technicians, operators and managers who wish to share information and dialogue regarding the safe use of pyrotechnics in stage, concert and conference environments.

 

Promote the safe handling, storage, transport and use of a specified range of pyrotechnic devices.

 

Promote training in the safe and appropriate use of a specified range of pyrotechnic devices, leading to recognition and certification by the Association.

 

Provide a forum service for all members working with stage pyrotechnics.

 

Provide a centralised register of operators experience and training.

 

Provide a verification service to External Agencies including Local Authority Licensing Departments, Fire Service and Insurance Companies.

 

 

I understand that amongst others some of the people who have run ABTT pyro courses are helping to put it together.

 

I for one wish them all the best and will be fully supporting their efforts.

[owen_mcauley]

Re. Association of stage pyrotechnicians

 

Just a few quick questions, from someone still young in the industry and funding my own training.

 

How much would training cost, and would members and subsequently competent persons have an agreed professional rate to work to?

 

How much will the industry pay attention to whether or not people are members of the organisation, or similar organisations and training backgrounds

[Lincoln]

The next Just FX "Practical Pyrotechnics" course for ABTT Members is

 

 

Wednesday 21st May  in Warwick  

 

Practical Pyrotechnics

 

Being held at the Drama Studio Arts Centre, at the University of Warwick. The courses will start at 10.30am and will finish at approximately 17.00hrs. Run by Lincoln Parkhouse from Just FX, the course’s primary function is operational safety. The course is accompanied by a comprehensive set of notes and the ABTT Code of Practice on Pyrotechnics. Subject to satisfactory completion of the course the tutor will sign an ABTT training certificate log.The cost of the course is £100 + VAT

 

Contact the ABTT office for course registration.  

 

Just FX have been involved in providing Stage Pyrotechnics training for the last six years and have run courses in many parts of the country from Pitlochrey to the Isle of Wight. The ABTT - London, TTTS, S4T - Scotland, RSAMD - Glasgow, NEC/NIA - Birmingham, Royal Albert Hall, Whitelight, Mountview, ALRA are just a few of the organisations that have run these courses in association with Just FX. Le Maitre run their own courses and Just FX have also assisted with this training.

 

Just FX have also been involved with the formation of the Association of Stage Pyrotechnicians and whilst it it not quite ready for action yet, there is plenty of information on the site for you to digest.

 

I suggest that you have a good look around the site and register for when it goes live.

 

OTHER TRAINING

Just FX is always on the lookout for venues/theatres that have appropriate space and time to offer and run their training courses.

 

The critera required is simply...

Lots of space - (height)

Lots of ventilation - (replenishment fresh air because lots of smoke)

Tollerance of adjoining buildings and neighbours - (lots of noise!)

6 Tables and Chairs for participants

13a Mains Supply

Heating System - (adequate to keep participants warm!)

 

Ask your managers if you can run a course at your own venue. Just FX are usually happy to have 2 or 3 venue staff on the course free of charge in exchange for the space and time to do the courses.

 

You need to ask around, but I don't think you will have to search far before you find somebody who has done one of the Just FX courses somewhere in the country. Ask them what they thought about the content of the course!

 

In reply, specifically to Owen, couple of points...

 

The matter of competancy is always a difficult one as there is always going to be different levels of competancy in all aspects of work and training. The Association (ASP)is trying to address this by NOT making any judgments regarding a members competancy rather, providing the means (on a website register) by which an enquirer (local authority, venue management, insurance company, potential employer etc.) can make their own judgement of a persons competancy based on an employment/experience log and a training log that the member is prepared to keep with the association. - read more on the site.

 

... and just a small footnote. my public liability insurance premium has increased from £1,200 to £9,500 this year. A professional colleague of mine who used to work at Le Maitre has just been quoted £12,000 pa. So when it comes to a professional rate to work to... be assured from me, the person or company offering the cheapest quote has probably never (ever!) heard of insurance.

 

... hope that helps.

[Guest lightnix]

Is it time we had a register of stage pyro technicians that local authorites and fire officers could use to check the experience of the technician in charge before authority for the use of pyros is given?

There shouldn't really be a need for such a thing, given that employers / clients already have a legal duty to ensure the competence of their crews, using investigative means to do so. That means obtaining hard copies of training certificates and insurances policies, rather than mere verbal assurances. Unfortunately this rarely happens, many companies are afraid that if they "get heavy" with their freelancers they will not be able to get enough people to crew their shows - quite a turnaround from "there's plenty more where you came from, you're kind are ten a penny". Most crew don't bother with training because they don't see any commercial advantage in being properly trained. After all: The Show Must Go On. Regardless.

 

I do wonder how many "cowboys" are out there?

Loads. The problem partly stems from the fact that pyro effects are often limited to a genie or two, which many prod co's insist can be operated by "anybody". Nobody wants to go to the expense of hiring "a whole company" and (yet) another technician "just" to produce what is seen as a glorified puff of smoke. So the task often gets dumped on LX on the grounds that pyros are electrically operated and most crew will agree to do it, as they don't want to be perceived as being "unhelpful" - an accusation that was levelled at me on more than one occasion, when I refused the honour of firing a couple of genies on the grounds that I wasn't a qualified pyrotechnician.

 

How much will the industry pay attention to whether or not people are members of the organisation, or similar organisations and training backgrounds

Based on the current record, not much. See my first point for clarification. Trained Crew = Expensive Crew and as we all know, it's more important to do the job cheaply than it is to do it properly. If it all goes t*ts up, then you can just blame the guy/gal who pushed the button.

 

Likewise, I've never heard of any accidents in this country involving theatrical pyro.

Probably because reports of such accidents have often remained unreported and because official records, where/if kept, are not generally available. I used to work a lot with a sound guy who had a glass eye, which he got when a flash pot went off in his face back in the 70s. Nice.

 

The next Just FX "Practical Pyrotechnics" course for ABTT Members is...

No disrespect to the ABTT, Just FX, The Association of Stage Pyrotechnicians or Lincoln ( having worked with him on a number of occasions over the years I can certainly vouch for his professionalism), but I would like to raise a couple of points here...

 

1. Why do you have to be a member of the ABTT to take this course. There is far more to the business than theatre. Many of the biggest pyrotechnic shows are in rock 'n' roll touring. How many road crew are going to join a theatrical organisation just so they can do a few courses ? In fact, why should you have to be a member of any professional organisation in order to get training ? Discounts for the membership is one thing, but this sounds awfully "closed shop".

 

2. While I am sure the course content is perfectly sound, the best way to prove competence to safety officers, insurance companies and (heaven forbid) juries is with a nationally recognised qualification, such as a BTEC Award. I thought such an award had already been created and would hope that the ASP will work towards being able to offer this standard in due course.

 

3. I fully respect and support any group who genuinely work towards improving standards in the business and wish the ASP all the very best in their efforts. Just bear in mind and be warned that there are a lot of vested interests in the business, who will try to use an organisation such as this as a means of legitimising bad practice, rather than making things better and safer. This has already happened elsewhere. Watch out for them.

 

Footnote: The reason that PL Insurance premiums are rising is not just because of 9/11/01. According to my contact at Robertson Taylor, it is as much to do with the fact that there have been an increasing number of claims made against the entertainments industry in the last few years, with massive payouts being made by insurance companies as a result (see "Court News" in the Rigging forum).

 

One other thing: isn't there something about "no advertising" in the Blue Room terms and conditions ?

[Lincoln]

In reply to Lightnix

 

Your point 1. "Why do you have to be a Member of the ABTT to take this course"

 

You DO NOT have to me a member of ANY association to take the Just FX Pyro Course.

 

You do, however, at least and out of courtesy, have to be an ABTT member to take a course which has been organised, set up and sponsored by the ABTT. My earlier post merely highlighted the NEXT AVAILABLE course that was on the diary via the ABTT as I thought many Blue Room subscribers were ABTT members.

 

The deal with Just FX the ASP includes plans to give people free membership of the Association of Stage Pyrotechnicians for the first year in order to provide support to trainees following training.

 

The ASP has deliberately included "Stage Pyrotechnicians" in its name to encompass Theatre, Conference, Concert, Conference disciplines. Not just "Theatre"

 

So... be assured, it is definately NOT a CLOSED SHOP

 

Point 2. Having been an author, tutor and facilitator for the BTEC qualifications (with Le Maitre) for the Pyrotechnics Courses, I couldn't agree more with your sentiments and the ASP with Just FX and other training providors aspire find a national qualification that is workable and affordable. The Just FX course is a start and we feel it is better to start small and grow rather than offer the world and watch nobody take it up. This is a very difficult subject for me to comment on as I have spent too many voluntary hours and too much personal money going to meetings and committees watching the commercial merchants only see the potential for £££ signs.

 

 

Finally, No deliberate advertising was intended, In fact you will not find very much reference to Just FX anywhere purely and simply because we aim to remain in the background and give support to "professional" freelances and technicians... The people that need to find us always do and the people that want to spend their time blowing themselves up and find chemistry mixtures usually receive a pretty cold response.

 

 

[Note to Admin] please remove all these posts if you feel we have breached terms and conditions... Also give us a call sometime as you may wish to get invoved with the XMB forum on the ASP site.

[Guest lightnix]

That's very good to know - all the best with it. How will you raise industry awareness of the need for competent personnel and persuade them that the extra cost is worth it ? Other people have tried and failed.

 

Not criticising, just wondering.

[Lincoln]

That's very good to know - all the best with it. How will you raise industry awareness of the need for competent personnel and persuade them that the extra cost is worth it ? Other people have tried and failed.

 

Not criticising, just wondering

 

eeeeerrrr! with your help and everbody else who wants to support it and see it happen. Raising industry awareness of the need for competant personel is not difficult when you are dealing with United Nations classified and Health & Safety Executive Classified and Authortised Explosives... which is precisely what stage pyrotechnics are.

 

I understand your concerns very well especially since we have been through all the Loughborough/BTEC/PSA/Edexel hoops, hurdles, tears and tantrums, as well as being one of the suckers that shelled out £500 to create the Guild of Fireworks & Pyrotechnics Operators. Why!, oh why!, I stick with this, God only knows but I do know that the people I talk to, want it, and they do NOT want it to be complicated, "closed-shop", inhibitive, damaging to pyro sales etc etc... just informative an supportive. So unless we see somebody else trying to do it, I guess, we have no choice other than to continue and see what comes of it. The best we (the ASP and Just FX) can ask of you is to help support it and get involved with it. Even if you never touch pyro again you may wish to keep up to date with considered "best practice", law, transport, storage, use etc etc. so, perhaps you should register to join up Nick!!! Your services might also be useful on the ASP forum to keep everybody else on their toes!!! :)

 

 

Your points are not taken in any way as critisim... Indeed, I am grateful that you have responded enough for me to expand the detail for all our other viewers.

 

 

Linc