Video Cameras for show recording

[Stutwo]

Don't panic, this isn't to do with copyright!

 

I'm wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a decent (HD if possible) consumer level DV camcorder for show recording. This is mainly to record in-college student work produced in full theatre conditions so we need something as up to date as possible that is user-friendly. I'm researching some Sony models available for around £500 on amazon, but if anyone has anything to suggest I'd be grateful.

[James]

Decent

HD

DV

 

Which two of those would you like....

[paulears]

Most schools and colleges going for HD are spending up to a couple of grand. Don't forget that the consumer cameras often labeled HD DV are actually Hard Disk (HD) Digital Video (DV) - so some are Hi-def, to hard drive, some are standard-def to DV tape, and so on.

 

They key is what the end result is for? If it's for evidence that you give to an EV, then beware of the consumer cameras - the lenses are often poor, the internal mics pick up the mechanism and lesne noise brilliantly, but fail to capture the kids, have very difficult or impossible to turn off auto focus systems that ruin all theatre type lighting images - constantly hunting for focus. Awful optical zooms that then use digital manipulation to go closer - making the picture even worse.

 

The 1-2 grand HD pro-sumer cameras seem to generate decent pictures - when used by people who don't have tromboneitis.

 

I went and looked at the amazon cameras - plenty to choose from, but cross-checking on google reveals too many model changes to keep up with.

 

let us have the model of one you fancy and we'll look at the spec. Do you actually need tape? HD, then transfer to DVD makes sense - but the cheap DVD camcorders don't seem to cut it - from the ones I see in schools. HD is a different thing alltogether - much more care required.

[Guy Tec]

Decent

HD

DV

 

Which two of those would you like....

Hi James I work in a FE college and we use Canon XM2 with wide angle Lens on to Mini Dv Cassette, cost about £1500 with case (peli) and tripod works well .This year we are going to use Sony DCR-HC37E(which has 0 lux great for Blackouts) as well to add close up stuff and mix it live through a vision mixer onto HDD recorder to be copied on to DVD for EV with menu.

[Stutwo]

let us have the model of one you fancy and we'll look at the spec. Do you actually need tape? HD, then transfer to DVD makes sense - but the cheap DVD camcorders don't seem to cut it - from the ones I see in schools. HD is a different thing alltogether - much more care required.

 

Thanks for the responses. The one I was looking at was the Sony HDR-SR5E, but having said that we might well have the opportunity to get hold of a Sony HVR-A1E which is a nice step up.

 

I'm used to dealing with the usual problems like focus-hunting and bleaching out of the image, but it would be nice to have something I could set up with the minimum of fuss. The problem I have with Hard-Drive and DVD camcorders is the format of the video produced. I usually use Final Cut Pro (or the students use iMovie mainly), and the format of the recorded file is often incompatible. I'd appreciate thoughts on the HVR-A1E especially.

[Pete McCrea]

My First thought was the Sony HD units that record onto DV Tape, HVR Z1 and the other they make. But your looking at thousands, not hundreds.

[paulears]

It has a decent spec, and can handle DVCAM too, which I didn't realise. My only grump is that the images suggest it has one of those daft bottom loading mechanisms which are awkward with a tripod. Still, at a grand more than your original suggestion, you're out of consumer into pro-sumer which must be a good thing.

[Pete McCrea]

The Z1 is top loading for the tape, same as the PD170/PD150/VX2100/VX2000.

[James]

If you want a decent camera that can record DV then I wouldn't hesitate to recomend the Z1 Probably better for you to use it in DV mode rather than DVCAM

 

It can also record HDV but my first comments in this thread still stand.

[paulears]

Trouble is, James - what point is it that you are trying to make? You can have decent HD or decent DV, but not both? I've tried to work out what you mean - irony? doesn't work well in text.

[James]

HDV is a vile format that should never have been created.

 

(Personal opinion only...)

[MarkPAman]

Stu, does your college have a media department?

 

We used some of the small DV cameras for a few years & were reasonably happy until they started breaking down. So to get us out of a hole, "media" lent us a Cannon MX2 and we realised what we'd been missing. :) We now have a couple of these. Compatibility with "media" means we can borrow extra batteries etc. very easily & there's a good pool of camera ops who know the kit.

 

Whatever you go for, some of the things you should look for are:

• Microphone input - there's almost always a better position for the mic than attached to the camera
  
• AV in - means you can keep an edited AVI on tape rather than use loads of hard drive or compress to DVD
  
• Top loading - taking the camera off the tripod to change tape is a pain.
  
• Manual focus - essential
  
• Good optical zoom - digital zoom is no good
  

[Shez]

To add to Mark's post, manual white balance is pretty essential too. And manual iris.

I started out with a Canon XL1s, which was alright but I never overly impressed with the images it produced - theatre lighting is a very tough environment for a camera.

I'm now using a Sony DSR400 which absolutely blows out the water anything I've used previously. It's probably out of your budget (~£7k) but the difference between that and the £3k XL1s is vast.

 

A good operator is probably worth more than the camera though. Juggling lots of manual controls is not a job for the faint hearted but any camera set to auto everything will produce pretty poor results.

[paulears]

Most schools and colleges do have nice kit - but have to have cameras with auto everything. You mention good cameramen? Short supply. I have a complete set of every performance of a big show at an outside venue, recorded on JVC 5000 series cameras, and not one has any audio of any kind, and one is out of focus the entire show. Nobody noticed the audio source switches were in the wrong position, and the out of 'focusness' was because the student who set it up couldn't find the auto button - which of course, it doesn't have!

 

For people who know cameras, the manual iris, focus, white balance, black balance and anything to do with depth of field are essential - for teachers, getting the tape in can be a challenge.

[Shez]

For people who know cameras, the manual iris, focus, white balance, black balance and anything to do with depth of field are essential - for teachers, getting the tape in can be a challenge.

 

On the odd occasion when I wasn't able to be there to film the student work, I've left them with a basic, auto everything camera, all set up, tape loaded & ready to go. The results are usually barely adequate. For me, this is one of those occasions when decent equipment / personnel are vital - the tapes have to go off to the exam board and if they can't see / hear what's going on, the marks won't be a fair representation of what the work is worth. Student designed lighting can be particularly "creative" which makes life very hard for the poor camera.

 

I take your point - I've met plenty of teachers who've been unable to even switch on a TV & VCR. I'd have thought it would be worth getting a staff member trained up a reasonable level of competency with the camera. The place you buy it from might even chuck in a hour or two of free training if you ask nicely. It'll make a big difference.