Steeldeck or Scaffolding

[Steve Macluskie]

Dear All

 

Following an office discussion, I thought I'd throw this one to the floor.

 

Definition: \Scaf"fold*ing\, n.

1. A scaffold; a supporting framework

 

 

Where does the line exist between a stage Steeldeck structure involving cross bracing and a scaffolding structure?

 

Is it because of the steel deck itself as the working platform? If I built a 9m piece of scaffolding and put a deck on top would it be a Steeldeck Structure or scaffolding?

 

 

Steve

[Suzette]

If you want to call it steeldeck do you not have to use steeldeck platforms, as made by the Steeldeck Company?

I'm not sure but is 'steeldeck' as a name trademarked??

I would have thought that a scaffold frame with a piece of timber across the top is .... a scaffold frame with a piece of timber across the top! Or are you putting a steeldeck section on top of your scaffold frame?

[gareth]

Steeldeck is the trade name of the decking system as manufactured by Maltbury (link).

 

So strictly speaking, the only true Steeldeck structure is one which has been built using Maltbury Steeldeck modules. Any structure involving scaffolding frameworks with a timer deck on top is simply that - a scaffolding stage with timber decking.

[ianl]

true steeldeck is also made by steeleck as well as Maltbury.

 

but back to the origonal question I asume the question is to do with having to have scafold structures inspected by a competent person when anyone can put up some steeldeck with a lot less training.

 

surely it depends on what you intend to use it for if you are building a stage then that is what it is, if you build scafolding for access purposes like in a building site then its not a stage even if you balance a bit of stage on top

[Steve Macluskie]

Thanks Ian for keeping us on track with the initial question

 

I'll re-phrase with a hypothetical question....

 

If I build a Steeldeck (Yes, I know it's a trade name) Structure, with cross bracing and treads, upstage of a 7m wall to let actors access a doorway 4m up for an entrance, does it fall under scaffolding regulations...I.e inspected by a "competent" person and signed off?

 

 

Steve

[gareth]

I'll re-phrase with a hypothetical question....

 

If I build a Steeldeck (Yes, I know it's a trade name) Structure, with cross bracing and treads, upstage of a 7m wall to let actors access a doorway 4m up for an entrance, does it fall under scaffolding regulations...I.e inspected by a "competent" person and signed off?

Ah, well, if you'd put it like that in the first place ... :** laughs out loud **:

 

I don't have an anwer to that question, but I'd suggest contacting your local council licensing officer in the first instance - I'm sure they'd either be able to answer your question or point you towards someone else within the local council who can.

[Andrew C]

The students here wanted to build a tall "Steeldeck" structure, and I raised just this point. Following a RA, I came to the conclusion that if the structure was below 4' (I think) that is the max. height Maltbury recomend for unbraced structures, then it was steeldeck. If above this height, more stringent checks would be needed. That is not to say I would have gone to the extreme of getting scaffolders in to build it, but my thoughts turned that way.

[ianl]

if you are building anything it should be inspected by a person competent to inspect that item.

 

before putting it up you need to decide the level of competence required,

 

if you were building a 2ft high steeldeck stage then I would suggest the person assembling it should be competent enough

 

if building a steeldeck stage over 4ft high it needs cross bracing and this needs a different level of competence.

 

I would decide if you feel competent to inspect your planned structure (ie do you have training and experience in such structures), if not then I would suggest getting someone from the staging industry rather than tha scaffold industry as I would feel their competence is slightly more relevant.

 

so to sum up , in my opinion you don't need someone with a certificate that says they know how to inspect scafolding, you need someone with relevant experience and training (which might be yourself)

 

I reserve the right for a court to see it differently!

 

In my experience of councils and staging, they do not employ staging experts and they often insist on unecesary or incorect procedure. much better off talking to a staging company ( I find steeldeck very helpful)

[Andy Mel]

As long as I'm understanding what your saying correctly it sounds as though you would be far better off using a proprietry ally scaff tower!!

In my previous incarnation as hire manager for stagecr.... I often had these sort of requests and I would certainly not have recommended trying to lift the deck to correct height, 70Kg upto 4m.. its going to hurt!!

If the deck was placed at this level steel legs should be considered and bracing would have to be in all axis. Consideration should then be given to how people access this platform - step units would again be fun to build - this means a ladder would be ideal, but you are then placing a sideways force on the deck which it has to resist!!

All in all rethink time I would suggest, scaff towers can offer the answer in a much safer controlled way!

 

Hope this helps!

[Rob]

At a venue I used to work at in Islington, the local licensing policy was that the councils' Building Control department should be informed about any load bearing structures which supported people.

 

If the deck was placed at this level steel legs should be considered

 

On another note, I always try to use steel legs for decking full stop. What do other people think about using Ally legs, and how well does it stand up to vertical loading?

[Ike]

Steeldeck safety manual (PDF)

 

With steeldeck you get instructions about its setup and applications. It is assumed that the manufacturers have designed and manufactured a safe product and as long as you are following the their instructions there isn't much for you to worry about. From this I would conclude that a responsible person who has read the instructions and has had some experiance of its use is competent to rig steeldeck.

There are of course some exceptions which are not covered by the manufacturers instructions and therefore would require further training and/or experience in order to be classed as competent.

 

What do other people think about using Ally legs, and how well does it stand up to vertical loading?

I don't mind using them on small stuff (bellow about 2') anything bigger than that and I would prefer steel.

[jagardner1984]

I am not sure that I agree with IanL on varying degrees of competence. There is a correct way of installing steel deck, although obviously it gets more complex as you go further off the ground. However, if several 2ft platforms to make a stage are not fitted correctly, with innappropriate numbers of legs or bolts to hold it all together, then surely, when loaded with 40 members of the chorus, that is also extremely dangerous, and multiple injuries might occur.

 

The issue of a greater height - well is it really an issue of competence. Steeldeck manufacturers clearly state how a piece is to be installed - right, therefore anyone who understands the manual and has had some experience in the field is capable of saying that is right or wrong - or is that a gross simplification

 

James

[ianl]

setting up steeldeck at a height that does not need cross bracing can be tought to someone fairly easily and they don't need much technical understanding just to remember leg in each corner tighten bolt as per the steeldeck 2 page instruction sheet.

 

setting up steeldeck over 4ft high requires crossbracing and heer I feel the competent person would have to understand the forces involved and adapt the bracing to suit each set up.

 

after all there are a lot of wrong ways to crossbrace something, but very few wrong ways to put a standard leg in a standard bit of steeldeck

[jagardner1984]

I agree with the sentiment but I have seen steeldeck with 2 bolts supporting two sections and two legs at the end of the two 8x4 decks, so surely the injuries involved with this collapsing would be quite bad.

 

Should it not be the case that all persons dealing with steel deck ought to aim for the heighest degree of competence. What happens if there is a 5ft platform. In a busy fit-up, a stage technician who has only been taught to do unbraced platforms is asked to do one. He will most likely to do it - wrong.

 

If he knows already what to do, even if he rarely does it - no problem.

 

James

[MartinT]

Before I put my answer here, I'd better put my caveat in that I work for a large staging rental company (not Steeldeck) :D

 

 

Raised platforms are always a nightmare because so many people think you can just put in 4 legs and off you go.....

 

Also it all depends on how many people you are putting up there, it not unusual for people to say there will only ba a couple of people and forget to mention the 50 audience members invited. Okay an exaggeration but you get the idea

 

There is no set solution for any given problem but here are a few pointers.

 

Above 950mm deck height we move from single legs to welded leg frames because of whip the orientation of the structure if planned correctly can give tremendous strength for instance, if you have a line of decks across the stage - some leg frames will run left to right and others right to left. Bracing is not just there to stop the structure wobbling but to transfer loads too

 

Most decks are rated to 750Kg per square meter - but this is a spread load, you need to take into account the floor loading.

 

Normally we work with the clients and try to translate their sketches into a workable form taking into account there requirements and combining it with a safe structure. Normally the conplications arise when legs are where access points need to be or when people want huge spans. If only we could master levitation!!!

 

Your staging company should give you a drawing showing bracing patterns etc for your structure along with deck layouts etc. THere should also be a guide with assembly instructions together with a method statement and risk assessment for more complex jobs.

 

Who is competent? In our case one of our crew or someone who has been trained by us. We normally go out as part of the job and get the structure past the local authority. For complex jobs - letting the authority know in advance gets you past a lot of difficulties.

 

If anyone needs any assistance on a specific problem feel free to contact me outside of this forum - it free and I won't try to rent you a structure (unless you want too of course)