Radio mics

[ian hatch]

Hi there, this is my first posting, so I'm going to see how it goes.

Just purchased 4 Sennheiser EW365 radio mic systems, and as I'm new to radio mics I've got a question.

I was running one of them along side several Beta 58's for a band, all the gains were set to zero on the desk, and I checked that I had the sensitivity on the radio system set right, but the 58's were a lot loader than the radio mic.

No real problems with this, just had to increase the channel in the mix, but I was just curious to know if this is the norm when it comes to radio mics, and if so why?

I would much appreciate any responses.

Many Thanks

[paulears]

On the mics you have a variable gain setting on one of the programme positions - it says gain, and has the gain adjustable in 10dB steps

[Just Some Bloke]

The correct way to set gains on the desk is to PFL the chanels one at a time, get the performer to give you an idea of level into the mic and set the gain so that the PFL meter reads just under 0dB at the loudest point. If you do this, then looking at the position of the faders will tell you instantly which chanel is loudest and which quietest, regardless of what level the radiomic is chucking out.

 

Hope that helps.

[ian hatch]

Thanks for the reply, Yes that's how I do set the levels, it just seems that the radio mic is quietier than the 58's even if all the PFLs are set to zero.

 

On the mics you have a variable gain setting on one of the programme positions - it says gain, and has the gain adjustable in 10dB steps

Thanks for the reply.

I had the gains set on the radio system to -20 as described in the manual for vocals

[6th Order]

That's a good starting point, but it depends on the vocalist.

 

I have run a vocal, set at -5db, on an EW365 in the past.

 

Adjust it to suit your vocalist/s.

 

(Don't forget the tonal differences of the two capsules)

[paulears]

Rather ironically, this evening our show came in, sound checked using the same mics, and all was well, until the show when they suddenly sang at about twice the volume - how annoying that I couldn't do the very thing we spoke about this morning!

[ian hatch]

That's a good starting point, but it depends on the vocalist.

 

I have run a vocal, set at -5db, on an EW365 in the past.

 

Adjust it to suit your vocalist/s.

 

(Don't forget the tonal differences of the two capsules)

Thanks for the reply

I noticed on the receiver readout panel that the levels were reading about normal with the occasional PEAK coming up.

Would this still have an effect on how much quieter the radio mic was to the 58's?

[henny]

either in a menu on the reciver or on the older unites a pot on the back you can set the output level of the reciver

[Shez]

Bear in mind that a normal 58 is a coil of wire in a magnetic field and a radio mic system is a box full of electronics. It's a bit apples and oranges...

 

As others have said, you need to set up a proper gain structure within the radio system. The gain pot on the desk is there to let you match different outputs to the standard operating level on the desk. You can connect the Evo receiver to a mic or line input, and there's a fair range of gain adjustment on its output within the menu structure. A high level output into the line input will mean your desk channel gain is low. A low level output in to a mic input will mean your desk channel gain is much higher. There's nothing wrong here; you're just comparing two completely different technologies, which required two different ways of working.

[ian hatch]

Bear in mind that a normal 58 is a coil of wire in a magnetic field and a radio mic system is a box full of electronics. It's a bit apples and oranges...

 

As others have said, you need to set up a proper gain structure within the radio system. The gain pot on the desk is there to let you match different outputs to the standard operating level on the desk. You can connect the Evo receiver to a mic or line input, and there's a fair range of gain adjustment on its output within the menu structure. A high level output into the line input will mean your desk channel gain is low. A low level output in to a mic input will mean your desk channel gain is much higher. There's nothing wrong here; you're just comparing two completely different technologies, which required two different ways of working.

Many thanks for the reply.

Let's just say that all the gain structures are set correctly on the radio system and the desk, is there still any reason why the 58's should be a lot louder than the radio mic, as seems to be the case?

[Shez]

is there still any reason why the 58's should be a lot louder than the radio mic, as seems to be the case?

 

Could you clarify what you mean by louder? Do you mean the meters are showing a higher level for the 58s or do you mean that the meters are showing the same level but the 58 sounds louder?

 

If the former, the gain structure needs tweaking. If the latter, it might be the huge presence peak that 58s exhibit that can give them a rather harsh edge that you're hearing. I guess that could make them sound louder than a mic with a smoother response like the 865. I'm going to have to dig out my EW365 and a 58 and have a play now... :)

[ian hatch]

is there still any reason why the 58's should be a lot louder than the radio mic, as seems to be the case?

 

Could you clarify what you mean by louder? Do you mean the meters are showing a higher level for the 58s or do you mean that the meters are showing the same level but the 58 sounds louder?

 

If the former, the gain structure needs tweaking. If the latter, it might be the huge presence peak that 58s exhibit that can give them a rather harsh edge that you're hearing. I guess that could make them sound louder than a mic with a smoother response like the 865. I'm going to have to dig out my EW365 and a 58 and have a play now... :)

The meters are reading the same, the 58's sound louder.Also something I forgot to mention is the singer with the radio mic kept moaning that his monitor was quieter than the rest who were using the 58's even though the aux's were roughly set the same, so I had to turn his monitor up a lot more than the others, any connection?

[paulears]

The Sennheiser hyper-cardioid 845, and the cleaner 865 both sound VERY different from 58s. They also have different characteristics that mean that touching the lips with them both, and setting an identical level seems sensible, but then as you move the mic away, they behave differently. The Shure tends to sound thinner very quickly, but seems to still cut through, giving the impression it's louder, while the Sennheiser seem to be 'duller', making them sound as if they are quieter - so those singers who wave their mics around in that totally daft uncontrolled manner they see so often on TV, think they are off. and moan that the 'sound isn't right'.

[ian hatch]

The Sennheiser hyper-cardioid 845, and the cleaner 865 both sound VERY different from 58s. They also have different characteristics that mean that touching the lips with them both, and setting an identical level seems sensible, but then as you move the mic away, they behave differently. The Shure tends to sound thinner very quickly, but seems to still cut through, giving the impression it's louder, while the Sennheiser seem to be 'duller', making them sound as if they are quieter - so those singers who wave their mics around in that totally daft uncontrolled manner they see so often on TV, think they are off. and moan that the 'sound isn't right'.

Many thanks, that sounds like the answer to the question.

Have you got any suggestions to solve the mic / monitor problem, bar telling the singers not to wave the mic around, knowing full well they are not going to take any notice what so ever.

[Shez]

Have you got any suggestions to solve the mic / monitor problem, bar telling the singers not to wave the mic around, knowing full well they are not going to take any notice what so ever.

 

It seems to be an all too regular occurrence that singers don't know how to use a mic properly. I'm sure a potential guitarist wouldn't pick up a guitar and immediately try to play it on stage without some form of instruction in its use first (alright, there may be some exceptions out there...) but singers seem to assume that they can just intuitively use a mic properly. Training them in good mic technique will pay all sorts of dividends for you.