LX Desk

[Gwion]

My dilema is this.

I am Technical Manager in a theatre, and, am on the lookout for a new desk. We are a multi purpose venue, with live music gigs, conferences, classical concerts, and theatre.

I'm considering a 2nd hand Jands Hog 600, and an ETC Expression 3, and can spend upto £3,000

I need a good theatre stacking desk with moving light control. I'm most familiar with Avolites desks, and have a lot of experience on the Frog range also.

 

 

With Thanks

Gwion

[Bix]

Can't go wrong with a Hog 1000 if you can get a second hand one at that price. I've been using Hog 500/1000s for 5 years and not really had an application they couldn't deal with until you get into sophisticated LED effects.

[Ken Coker]

What do you do most of?

Who will be doing the board operating? House or touring op?

How many shows will bring their own desk?

How much time can you devote to staff training?

 

I love Pearls, but the theatre playback section is just plain cobblers - as it is on most of the "live" consoles.

 

The Expression is a great desk, but the moving light section is a bit clunky and one wouldn't want to run more than about a dozen movers from it - or at least I wouldn't. The FX section on an Expression is a bit dull and non-intuitive. However, it is an excellent desk for theatre and a good op can set it up to do most things - the older software does not do "move when dark", which is a real bore.

 

Some, (you know who you are), swear that the Frog range is great for theatre and mixed-programme work. I have yet to be convinced of this.

 

The Congo seems to be a decent console for all types of work, but is double what you have to spend. The Congo Jr strikes me as a fine desk, so it might be worth seeing what kind of deal you can get on one.

 

So:

 

Mainly theatre, conferences and concerts = theatre console

Rock and roll, one nighters = live desk

 

(Oh yes, might be worth bearing in mind the amateur groups. Many of them seem happier pressing a large friendly button marked "GO". This frees you to go to the pub/do the time sheets rather than watching yet another production of "Showboat.")

 

Cheers

 

KC

[paulears]

I too go with the concept of a theatre desk for theatre, and a live desk for live work.

 

The mode of operation is pretty important. I've got a Jands Hog 600 in the theatre now, and it is really good for one nighter music shows, comedians and general light entertainment, but it's a pain for conventional called shows with cues. It will do them fine, but the button pushing to do fairly simple alterations to the cues needs a bit of head scratching. The programmer style of these kind of desks is not better or worse, just different.

 

Many older people will be used to Strand style syntax, and having to learn a new alternative that bears little resemblance to it, take more head scratching.

 

For fast moving theatre, on the less clever desks, you can enter a channel, dim it a bit - and then update the cue. With the Jands you have to think differently. How exactly is what you see being created - where do you want to update it too? Having a cue list placed onto a number of faders again is a different way of working - so you can't really treat the faders as subs. Well, you can, but you need to make sure the desk knows that is what you mean.

 

One thing that does annoy me a bit is that many functions require two hands to access, as physically you may need to hit the pig key with your right, while hitting another button with your left - and the 600 is a big desk. I really like it, but I wish we had the Strand 300 back.

[Neil Hampson]

AC have a used Expression 3 for £2,500 at the moment. As has been said, as a theatre desk with little requirement for movers or fancy effects cues it's a reliable, and reasonablly easy desk to learn. you do really need the two monitors though which would push you over budget.

I agree it does have a relativley poor moving light interface, but for the price I can't think of a better 400Ch. desk. The cue stack has many great little feautres and with 24 subs as well as various groups busking isn't that much of a nightmare as comparable big desks.

(The only problem with the desk that AC are offering is that it is white, which just looks odd, the one I use has a metalic grey finish)

[Gwion]

What do you do most of?

Who will be doing the board operating? House or touring op?

How many shows will bring their own desk?

How much time can you devote to staff training?

 

1- That's the problem. As a multi purpose venue, we do a lot of everything!

2- The majority is done by in house staff = ME (Programing subs for techs on easier shows)

3- One in 10 bring their own desks, BUT, when they do, THAT"S WHEN I GET A 'MARE!!- training is down to me to play and learn. I'm used to Strand, Avo, & Zero88

 

I'm now thinking of the Congo Jr route as well.

 

thanks to all for input.

Keep it comming

[Just Some Bloke]

As a Congo Jr. user currently, I can add another recomendation for it - especially if you can afford to add the fader wing (maybe in next year's budget?)

 

It has an excellent cue stack for theatre work which makes recording and editing cues really quick. Moving heads are really easy with the direct selects, especially with the "all palletes" which allow you to save a series of entire looks and recall them at the touch of a button.

 

It takes a while to get used to how to work with the Congo Jr., but once you're used to it you realise how easy it is to use. We got ours 2 days before the plot for Panto and we had it programmed in time, so it can't be that hard!

[zonino]

AC have a used Expression 3 for £2,500 at the moment. As has been said, as a theatre desk with little requirement for movers or fancy effects cues it's a reliable, and reasonablly easy desk to learn. you do really need the two monitors though which would push you over budget.

 

there is a "Swap" button which allows you to switch the outputs of the screens over, you can get by on one screen for a while with this (and monitors aren't that expensive any more! I don't see it taking the expenditure over £3k)

 

I really like the Expression 3, but I've not used it for anything other than generics/scrollers

[Gwion]

This gets better and better!!

A Congo seems like my best option at the mo, and I agree, the playback wing is something to budget for next year.

I was most inspired to understand that I could control 'groups' without the wing.

Without public funding, out venue has a really tight budget, and tech stuff is tighter than Russell Brand's pants!!!

Soon

Gwion

[maeterlinck]

Gwion, it sounds like I might work in a similar venue to yours. Currently having an Avo Pearl and coming horribly against its limitations within a theatre stack environment we demoed a number of consoles: Jands Vista, GrandMa, ETC Congo, ChamSys MagicQ. We also considered a number of others, but didn't demo for a number of reasons.

In the end ETC Congo Junior with wing came top. It had the strong theatre stack abilities, but still provided good busking features. The software and interface were easy to use and nicely intuitive. It had a very good backing from the company and was an established product.

However, the flipside of all of this is that the Congo range is not a powerful as some other desks, and from what we could tell it might be nearing the end of it's active development life. i.e. no major new features or updates, just bug fixes and small additions. Meaning its useful life could be shorter and raising TCO. However, we could be wrong about that was simply the impression we got.

 

In balance we opted for the Congo, given that with a very good price we got a very good desk, that was powerful within its given scope, and we could not foresee the needs of the venue changing too greatly within the next 5-10 years without capital for technical investment.

 

Hope this helps...

[DSA]

I have added my comments to this thread rather than the Pearl one, as this post is much more general - refer here for further background information.

 

Let me explain fully the situation. "We" are a 200-seater theatre based in the Students' Union building at the University of Bristol. The venue is mostly run by students for students, and is run very much as a union society and as a training exercise for the crew. Therefore the turnaround of crew is very quick as new people come in, and older people graduate. Hence we need something intuitive with not too great a learning curve. There are 60 fixed dimmer channels, with a wholly generic rig, and a wide variety of performances - mostly cue based. We currently own and run a 75 channel LBX with Kaleidescope, which has reached the end of its life. In addition the venue is rented out during vacation periods to local groups.

 

Budget is not super bucks, but neither should it be a major stumbling block at reasonable levels.

 

Hence, we had originally shortlisted both the Zero88 Leap Frog 96, and the Congo Jr. for closer inspection, but at this "initial ideas" stage we are not discounting anything - hence the thought of a Pearl. I would be grateful to hear of any more feasible options for our situation.

 

We must try to future proof ourselves, and allow for the desk to be used in a live environment when needed.

 

Because of the major training aspect of this venue, I (as the training manager) am really keen to propose the purchasing of something which is up to date, and will be seen in the "real world" if some of the crew decide to do more stuff professionally. As an example, we have just invested in a GL4000 for Sound, which is a great training tool. I wonder if the Zero88 option, with due respect, might not be the best choice with this in mind as they do seem to focus on education more than the professional side of the industry - however the "quick access via visible faders" might well be much better than a purely command line operation. In addition I have heard terrible things about Congo's crashing; indeed a local theatre is now allegedly on their 8th desk...

 

Now I realise that there is not really going to be a straight answer to this issue, as it is very subjective, but I would be grateful of your opinions for our desk. We just want to make the correct, informed decision.

 

Many thanks,

David

[Ken Coker]

Did the LBX work?

 

Did it meet all the challenges it faced?

 

Could people learn it very quickly?

 

Frankly, if it served you well and there is no prospect of you having a huge numbers of movers in in the near future, I would have thought a command-line/theatre desk would be the thing. Most of them are capable of running moving lights to at least some degree. They also have one or two nice large screens that make it easy to get feedback on the state of play and where you've put all the things you might need....

 

Given that you're in Bristol, I would have thought those nice chaps at Stage Electrics would be eager to demo a few desks for you. Give them a ring!

 

KC

 

PS: "In addition I have heard terrible things about Congo's crashing; indeed a local theatre is now allegedly on their 8th desk..."

 

As Husserl puts it: "Do not confuse insight with opinion......"

[Tomo]

In addition I have heard terrible things about Congo's crashing; indeed a local theatre is now allegedly on their 8th desk...

I can say, definitively and conclusively, that there is no venue on this planet that's ever had that many replacement Congos.

 

'Cos I'd know about it!

 

(However, there are several places that have 8 or more Congos.)

[bob_watts]

Having used the Congo Jr I can highly recommend it for your purposes. We had some crashing issues to start with but they have now been solved. The amateur companies who have been in since picked it up ok, I have to agree that the fader wing is a very good addition if budget will allow. Having designed a several shows on the Jr and busked even more I can’t fault it.

[Gwion]

I understand it is also possible to control Arkaos on a Mac through a Congo Jr.

Can someone tell me about their expeiriences with this?

 

How about other Visual software?

with thanks...