Power Tools (For Set building, honest)

[Neil Hampson]

OK, I know this is a bit OT but it is theatre related, honest.

I have just managed to break my ld jigsaw and am looking to replace. I have borrowed a 110V Bosch GST one and am most impressed, however I can't decide whether to get a 110V or 240V version (Other than the voltage, the specs seem identical) It will mostly be used at home but does go into the theatre and outside every so often. I have a 110V drill so I already have a yellow site transformer.

Pros for and against the 110V/240V

 

I will need to carry the tranny around when I need to use it which adds a bit of ar$ing about instead of just plugging it into the nearest 13A.

 

On the plus side this does diswade the casual lender and lowers the chance of 'walkies'

 

I understand the safety reasons for 110V on building sites, but could a stage during a fit up be classed as a building site?

(I have never yet come close to chopping a cable, and have an RCD on the 240V plugboard, but I supose if I ever did then I would hope to do that with a 110V tool not a 240V)

 

Regardless of the site safety / and clumsy tranny, which system is usually better (I.e more powerful, more reliable etc.)

 

So, what does everyone think? 110V or 240V Sorry if this should be in a DIY forum but as the old jigsaw expired on a theatrical job it's worth a try.

[mikienorth]

110V good: Less popular in our industry, so less liable to go missing, unless they try and take your Tx as well. They are safer, the centre tapped Tx means there is a 55V live/earth potential, so much less chance of a damaging electric shock (in this instance neutral is a live conductor, hence the distinction seen between phase and live elsewhere). They are more likely to be designed for industrial use over Home use. Seriously, there is a difference. Bosch make Bosch Green (home) and Bosch Blue (Construction/industrial) equipment.

110V Bad: You have to have a Tx, and cables to use it. Forget these, and you are stymied. And, if you don't already have these (you do) they are pricey

 

240V good: Everyone will be able to use it wether your Tx is there or not, and you can plug it in anywhere...

240V Bad: Everyone can use it without your Tx, so it might go walkies easier, it might not be as ruggedly built being intended not for industrial use, it has more potential for a damging shock, a 240V live/earth potential, in fact....

 

I'd go 110V, safety first, less likelihood of tool creepage (loss) the second reason, rugged build third.

 

Otherwise, look into cordless options, but battery use can be a pain, to be able to use it as much as a corded tool, you'd need three+ batteries, but the more modern equipment (DeWalt, Makita etc, basically not that found at the local superstore, but at the local builders yards) performs brilliantly and removes the worry of cable cutting from the equation.

[Neil Hampson]

Thanks Mike, you seem to be err'ing the same way. The one I borrowed was from my Father who is a time served Joiner/Cabinet maker so I expected it to be the the dogs whatsits, which it is. (can't remember but I think it's a blue one, it certianly isn't modelled to win any asthetic awards, it just sits there and says 'I cut wood, Fast' where as my other one looked like a food mixer. After years of struggling with a B&Q special I want a real one.

I did have a brief look at battery but I dismissed it without really trying one. I have a decent battery drill, but for anything other than a very quick job (or to use as a screwdriver) the power drill comes out, I think that my dismissal of battery is based on the performance (or lack of) of the drillHas anyone else much experiance with the battery powered ones?

[johnlinford]

Hilti's battery powered products are pretty good at making holes in walls (especially useful on raised platforms - no cables to get in a tangle), and my Makita cordless jigsaw compares with a lot of wired alternatives...

 

If you go for the Makita/Hilti/Milwaki (formerly Atlas Copco) ranges, they'll be very solid products. Bosches and the like just don't cut it, and the things you find in B&Q I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Having said that, as a cordless screwdriver the Bosch Ixo is a nice little tool.

[Tomo]

The DeWalt cordless drills, jigsaws and ripsaws are pretty good - but you do need at least two batteries, preferably three, so you can have one or two sat on charge all the time.

 

Cordless is great on a four-hour fitup/teardown.

However, it's not really what I'd want for an 8-12 hour day in the workshop!

[mikienorth]

I return. Personal tool stock is Dewalt 18V Drill & Jigsaw, brilliant kit, but needs to have a couple of batteries on the go for a long day, 24V Bosch (Blue) SDS drill (goes through house walls properly...) and a 110V Bosch (Blue) SDS (for going through castle/church walls and chasing out)

It really does depend on what Bosch you get, but their cordless stuff isn't much cop below what I've got (normal drills aren't their forte)

Remember that although you pay a premium for major brands, the service and replacement of parts is a more economical way of prolonging tool life than buying another BQspecial.

Modern cordless equipment is nothing like the stuff you may remember trying in the recent past, and are more and more common in the construction industry today.

Yes, Dewalt and Black and Decker are the same company, but the drills are vastly different.

Also look at Hitachi for site equipment.

 

Mike (97-03 construction site electrical contractor, 03-07 recieving theatre electrician)

[Ike]

I've avoided any 110V stuff as I only ever work in places full of 230V outlets of some kind or another so it seems a bit pointless dragging a transformer and cabling around when I'm surrounded by 230V cabling and I inspect all my tools prior to use. I tend to find spraying all my tools with fluorescent pink paint stops them being borrowed.

 

Just my 2p

[Neil Hampson]

I tend to find spraying all my tools with fluorescent pink paint stops them being borrowed.

That just makes them more attactive to the wife...

 

It sounds like a trip to a decent tool supplier is in order, so I can have a good comparison (and hopefully some unbiased sales pitch, if such things exist).

[mikienorth]

I tend to find spraying all my tools with fluorescent pink paint stops them being borrowed.

 

But I do that as well, So let's hope we don't share a job.....!

 

It does make things easier to spot when they are in the wrong boxes mind....

 

Unbiased tool suppliers do exist, most of them stock/service all types, but they may have favourites. Ask what they see in most for service, and why, popularity or naffness? If you are there long enough, see what people are taking.

 

[Edit:] In fact, ask your Dad which shop is best. As a time served chappie, presumably based in the same town as you, he'll know where to buy tools from.

 

A local supplier, tucked away in an industrial estate is always best. Stay away from big chains for this stuff, if you buy a brand, it doesn't matter where you get it from, or where you eventually take it for service/repair, anyone who does servicing will be able to do it. If you pay more from a local supplier, so what, you are paying for the advice, and the fact they can show you everything side by side, and give a good opinion on how good the stuff is. [/Edit]

[dbuckley]

I would venture that a 240V tool with an RCD is safer than a 110V tool.

 

The real problem with both these schemes is that the tool body is grounded to the supply earth, which most of the time is a good thing, but if the supply ground becomes ungrounded (and the worst case scenario is that it becomes live) then neither the RCD nor the standard yellow tranny will protect you from getting a belt from the tool. A double insulated tool will ameliorate this risk.

 

So my vote goes for a 240V double insulated tool always used with an RCD.

[Neil Hampson]

I would venture that a 240V tool with an RCD is safer than a 110V tool.

 

The real problem with both these schemes is that the tool body is grounded to the supply earth, which most of the time is a good thing, but if the supply ground becomes ungrounded (and the worst case scenario is that it becomes live) then neither the RCD nor the standard yellow tranny will protect you from getting a belt from the tool. A double insulated tool will ameliorate this risk.

 

So my vote goes for a 240V double insulated tool always used with an RCD.

 

Most, if not all tools I have used recently, including the Industrial 110V jigsaw above have been double insulated. I would assume that the most likley electrical accident in a busy workplace would be the cable being cut, and not a live to case fault. Even then the 55-55 Center tap of 110 means that even a full belt to earth is generally survivable as in practice the supply is treated as ELV (I know that the limit for ELV is 50V, but when I asked the IEE about the extra 5V there was no real concern, apparently in the history of 110V, there have been no electrocutions) From a safety viewpoint (ignoring practicality issues like the Tx etc.) I think that most would choose 110V

 

Note to Mods: Maybe this would be better moved to Power?

Moderation: It is really about tools, but drifting a bit OT into power detail... I think it is fine here.

[Roderick]

Sorry, bit confused here.

Correct me if I am wrong but I always thought it was the current, not the voltage, that could kill you. Based on simple calculations (VxA=W) a 110V tool would need a bit more than double the Amperage than the same 240V tool.

So why would it be safer?

[Tomo]

Correct me if I am wrong but I always thought it was the current, not the voltage, that could kill you.

Yes - but it's the current passing through you that does the deed.

 

It matters not how much current is passing through the piece of wire (if the wire can cope)!

 

I=V/R, and your resistance is fairly constant, so higher voltages across you result in higher currents.

 

That's why a 55V belt from a site transformer is unlikely to kill you, while a multi-kV shock from a transmission line might only leave a small piece of toast.

[dbuckley]

...and not a live to case fault. Even then the 55-55 Center tap of 110 means that even a full belt to earth is generally survivable as in practice the supply

Neil, I'm not suggesting a live to earth fault on the tool, but on the supply. My basis for this is I've seen a number of big 110V trannies wired up with armoured cable, where the black core was used as both the neutral and the ground of the transformer, and the metallic armour left unconnected at both ends.. Clearly if the supply neutral comes adrift then all tool bodies (of non-double-insulted tools) will rise to 240V rather than 110V, a clearly bad situation. I saw this often enough that I believe that it wasn't just one rogue sparkie.

 

Before these observations, I thought that the yellow building site tranny was a great idea. Now I like the Kiwi/Oz way, an isolating transformer, one per tool.

 

Theres a thread on an American electricians forum at the moment, discussing the fact that several of these guys have been shocked by their poorly maintained tools(!), and report that you just get the feeling ofa bee sting where the power tocuhes you before the RCD opens......

[Neil Hampson]

Now I'm confused, on site 110V I understand that there is no neutral. the supply should be more accurately described as 55V, 2 phase (with the transformer center tapped to the earth reference.) Using the 'black wire' to ground would then cause an immediate short from a supply phases and the fuse would blow.

 

Or am I missing something here? Apologies if I am.

This could be a UK thing?

 

To be honest I'm yet to see Power tool that is not double Insulated either, although there are many with metalic casings.