Brain Freeze

[tom_the_LD]

Hello, did do a search and couldn't find my answer!

 

I have cakewalk express and usually do MIDIs in it. Today however, I have written all the other parts such as guitar and piano as I have a yammy PSR 330 connected to the computer via MIDI which allows me to just play and it records. However I really can't be bothered to write a drum part out as its not quite as simple as playing it on a keyboard (unless you have an electric drum kit which WILL be coming soon :)). Would I be correct in saying that if I was to mic my kit and record me playing the drums I want into cakewalk, that I would not be able to save this creation as a MIDI as MIDI is pure digital data and recording is analogue?? So would have to save as a cakewalk project .wrk.

 

Hope that makes sense

 

Like I say, brain dead day!!

 

 

Tom

[dave_m]

You are totally 100% correct, though depending on cakewalk's output options, you may be able to export to MP3/wav. I know this can't be done with cubase, so I end up recording the wave output via audacity and then exporting to mp3.

 

Bit rambling, but hey.

[paulears]

the thing with computers recording music is the thing thjat you have to get straight is what exactly it is that gets recorded. In the case of midi it is not audio in any shape or form that is being recorded, it is events (as in which keys are hit) time (when you hit them) and velocity (how hard you hit them). The only audio is when the sound module, or internal soft synth makes some!

 

The score is generated from the midi data. If you record audio, that's fine, but as it is not event based, can't be matematically treated like midi data can. Midi is often treated as 'bad' - when it's what is done with it that counts. Audio can have loads of things done to it, but isn't convertable to midi without heavyweight processing, and extracting individual notes from a harmonically rich source is still beyond technology at the moment.

[tom_the_LD]

Although one downside to MIDI as apposed to a person recording something is it can be too computerised. This may sound stupid I know!! But if you are recording you can put 'feel' into what you are playing whereas computers just play things straight and boring. (Ok so you can set swing on the track and various other things but you know what I mean! :P)

[paulears]

No Tom, you've just made the classic midi statement - midi sound computerised. It doesn't. What people who don't understand it do to it makes it sound bad.

 

What normally happens is that its computer assistance messing it up. Sequencers can be set to quantise - some have a quantise setting as default that snaps each note to a grid - often semi-quaver/16th note - this is great because it tidies up a score, making it look good, but it makes it sound robotic, or metronomic. The more professional versions of the big sequencers allow you to set a display quantise setting that is different to the music quantise. I often leave the quantise off altogether - pretty vital for recording music with feel. Drums are a pretty good example - with a rubbish player, using a midi kit, or even playing on the keyboard, then quantise helps - and it's essential for dance music - but for jazz and lighter styles quantise robs the feel - little pushes and pulls get 'put right' (even though it's wrong)

 

Midi music does not have to be rubbish - there are really, really good midi tracks out there - but spend half an hour on the net, and you'll hear some truly dire versions of popular songs. This makes people state that midi is rubbish, when it isn't, it's what people do to it!

 

 

It's a really sore point for me - I get really fed up hearing people slag off a music track by saying things like "it's cr*p midi again" - when they mean it's a badly produced track - the midi just being the 'language'.

 

It is like looking at a light show and saying what a rubbish DMX setup they have - DMX, like midi is just the interface between kit!

[tom_the_LD]

I agree entirely Paul, there are very good MIDI's out there. I didn't mean to come across saying it was cr@p at all!!

 

Cakewalk has a quantise function too although its not on permanently. The user selects the tracks they want to quantise, and what they want to quantize it too. However in cakewalk, even if you quantise it, it still retains the value it was put in with, and doesn't change. This has probably made no sense at all so let me try and explain!!

 

If I played a piece of music on my keybaord, and one of the notes came out as a double dotted crotchet due to my inacurate playing when it should have been a minim, I could quantise it and it would change the appearance of the note to a minim, however it would still only retain the value of a double dotted crotchet. Don't know if this is the case with all quantising software :P

 

I've tried to explain as well as I can :D

[ChazzQuire]

If I played a piece of music on my keybaord, and one of the notes came out as a double dotted crotchet due to my inacurate playing when it should have been a minim, I could quantise it and it would change the appearance of the note to a minim, however it would still only retain the value of a double dotted crotchet...

I think what you are trying to say is that it snaps the start of the note to the nearest division (based on the quantise resolution), but doesn't affect the note duration? If this is the case it is common on decent sequencers. Also the option to change the strength of quantising is a fairly common and very useful. When I quantise I rarely quantise to the full 100%, normally around 90%. Hence allowing the 'tightness' of a real-time inputted data to be improved, whilst remaining true to the performance.

 

 

I have just finished the 2nd year of A Level Music Tech (the sequencing stream of work in the first year). The MIDI sequences I have submitted I have been very happy with the quality. With the aid of some good soft-synthesisers, or hardware MIDI modules the quality of MIDI sequenced work can sound very good. And as Paul said MIDI is just an interface between different equipment, MIDI data never need be the weakest link in the production of a sequence, the sounds that are triggered are.

 

I fear I have drifted too far of topic.

 

To answer your initial question if you incorporate audio into a sequence, you will not be able to save it as a MIDI file as MIDI is just a string of data designed to trigger events, not a format to store audio.

 

C.

[paulears]

If you meant to play a minim, but your sequencer displays it as a tied dotted crotched, that's a 50% increase in the note length!

 

Quantise settings can relate to both the start point in time, and the length. If you mess with the start point, you end up with the horrible ancient TV game sounding rubbish we all hate - when you apply it to a melodic line that has player interpretation, articulation and phrasing - you totally wreck it. However, it's very useful if you want to tighten up a rhythmic track - say the kick drum. It's a musical choice really.

 

Display quantisation is a different thing altogether. I'm a Cubase user, and Cubase needs some tweaks to make the score become readable. I tend to quantise notes to 1/16ths and rests to 1/4 and turn on syncopation - this for my style of music provides something I can read on monophonic instruments - piano tracks need more tweaking for a 'real' pianist to play them - they are the worst.

 

If you need scores then a lot of work is required, but if you only want to hear the music, then there's little point spending time making the appearance look good. Groove templates are excellent if you spend a bit of time setting them up - the ones Cubase ships with are kind of useful - although many I've never even tried.

 

 

Tom - a good tip is practice the keyboard. Accurate playing is far easier than hours of editing. In the case you mention - was your 3 beat note sounding 'wrong'? - I know you said it should have been a 2 beat note, but if it sounded good, it probably was!

[tom_the_LD]

Tom - a good tip is practice the keyboard. Accurate playing is far easier than hours of editing. In the case you mention - was your 3 beat note sounding 'wrong'? - I know you said it should have been a 2 beat note, but if it sounded good, it probably was!

 

Grade 6 Piano :P

 

Because cakewalk, like other music editing software, is very accurate it records exactly what you play. Therefore, when I came to record the melody line I didn't hold one of the notes quite long enough. And it recorded what should have been a minim as a double dotted crotchet however it SOUNDED fine to the human ear.

 

In cakewalk I have just found the option to change the note durations when you quantise; this probably bears some relation to what I was on about earlier!!!

 

Hope what I have just written makes SOME sense :D

[paulears]

I've been talking to Tom, and I've misunderstood him a bit - his display is producing real double dotted notes, not tied ones as I guessed - we think it is a display quantise parameter - after all, a minim is only slightly longer than a double dotted crotchet which is 175% of a crotchet.

[jamesperrett]

Would I be correct in saying that if I was to mic my kit and record me playing the drums I want into cakewalk, that I would not be able to save this creation as a MIDI as MIDI is pure digital data and recording is analogue?? So would have to save as a cakewalk project .wrk.

 

Yes - unless you had a mic on every separate drum and cymbal, recorded them on separate tracks, and then used some kind of drum replacement software to translate that to MIDI. I also recently saw a discussion about some software that can take a simple piece of music and translate it to MIDI. This has been possible with monophonic instruments for a while but the technology is starting to appear for polyphonic instruments too. The example that I saw mentioned was a piano piece played by Glenn Gould and the discussion was about whether a MIDI transcription of his performance could claim to be a piece played by Glenn Gould.

 

Cheers

 

James.

[tom_the_LD]

I also recently saw a discussion about some software that can take a simple piece of music and translate it to MIDI. This has been possible with monophonic instruments for a while but the technology is starting to appear for polyphonic instruments too.

 

If you come across the software, would be very interested to take a look - It sounds very intriguing! :P

[Just Some Bloke]

There are two reasons why software might show a minim whilst keeping a double dotted crotchet in memory:

1) It's easier to read a minim, but the player obviously thought a double dotted crotchet sounded better so the software displays a minim but actually plays what the musician inputted.

2) The software has automatically quantised the note to a minim and will play a minim as well as displaying a minim, but knows that you originally played a double dotted crotchet so keeps that in memory in case you want to disable the quantising later.

 

Going back to a comment above, I'm rather afraid that saying

there are very good MIDI's out there.

is like saying "there are some very good DMXs out there, or "there are some very good Irishes out there". Like Irish, MIDI is just a language. There is no such thing as a MIDI. You probably meant a MIDI file, but it goes back to the point Paul was making before: MIDI itself isn't at fault if someone programmes it badly. A bad MIDI file is the fault of the person who made it, not the concept of MIDI itself.

[tom_the_LD]

there are very good MIDI's out there.

is like saying "there are some very good DMXs out there, or "there are some very good Irishes out there". Like Irish, MIDI is just a language. There is no such thing as a MIDI. You probably meant a MIDI file, but it goes back to the point Paul was making before: MIDI itself isn't at fault if someone programmes it badly. A bad MIDI file is the fault of the person who made it, not the concept of MIDI itself.

 

Yeah I did mean good MIDI files - I have got into the habit of abbreviating 'MIDI Files' to 'MIDI's' and 'MIDI File' to 'MIDI'. It's a habbit I need to get out of!!

[paulears]

A long time ago I was involved in a sponsorship deal with Yamaha, and did some odds and ends for them when they first released the XG spec - which sadly, they don't support any more. If you want to hear some clever midi implementation then click here. I dug this out this evening - found an old Yamaha MU15 module in the shed - and recorded this straight from the output as an mp3 file - no external gadgetry at all. A midi file, played via Cubase straight into the module. probably best to download it as a file and then play it rather than wait while it buffers!