bluejudeto Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Hi, I'm looking for advice from anyone who's waded through the same number of brochures, technical specifications and price lists I have in the last few weeks. I'm equipping a small (18 metres by 11 m including end on bleachers) theatre/cinema space with a PA system to cope with recital, jazz, folk, world music, left-field type of music. The Cinema audio system is a fine as specified by the "Theatre Consultants" but the PA is woeful; 4 TOA microphones (?) and a Bose system more appropriate for the local church than an arts centre with a heavy music programme. I've a couple of problems with the space so any advice would be appreciated. First off, I can't put anything on the floor - disability access and fire exits scupper that - so I'll have to fly the speakers or bracket them off the walls. Secondly, I can't fly anything that's too big because it'll interfere with the projection and LX so nice and neat. The walls and the seating are also off centre to each other, so I'm concerned about potential phasing problems as well. We're also looking for some reasonable oomph in the PA, not for volume but for that wonderful warm feeling of quality way down to 25Hz. So I'm thinking maybe four mid-hi's with 10" drivers and 1-2" horns, two boxes aside in a mini array type of thing and a couple of discrete 15 or 18" subs tucked out of the way of wheelchairs and fleeing punters. Problem is basically which bunch of loudspeaker manufacturers should I hand over the council's money to? Nexo, Martin, Turbo etc.. The budget's not big-bucks but we've enough to do the job properly (I'm looking at the Yamaha LS9 for the FOH mix - small and as I'll be mixing from the back of the seats no outboard required) Any help will be much appreciated and thanks, Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Riley Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Hi, and welcome to the BR, Nexo ps8 or ps10, D&B E3, EM acoustics EMS81 are some of the ones in that size range that I have used and liked. The trade offs are obviously volume and bass response against size. ATM I'm thinking the ps10 (flown) might be good for this application. Just don't array them! Especially not 'line array' stylee. Probably one per side will do well as long as, like all Nexo PS, you run them with a relatively large amp behind them - the camco vortex four would do well for this . If you do go for this, you'll probably need a fair few LS500s to make it work effectively- I'm thinking at least 1 per side. I think that it is also important to look at which subs can produce 25 hz effectively. Off the top of my head you're looking at a stack of four quake subs or similar- D&B B2s can't even go that low in infra mode (they go to about 30hz). So you'll need lots of big hornloaded loudspeakers to even get close. My advice - stick with the usable output from a couple of LS500s a side for a system like the PS. I'm sure you wont be disappointed. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 25Hz? For recital, jazz, folk, world music, left-field type of music. I think I may have missed something here. Do we know a budget, as some suggestions are not exactly small change products? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Paul's point is valid. Systems mentioned already can cost several thousand pounds per cabinet and thats before you've plugged an amp in. Paul's also right to question 25Hz, a stack of 4 Quake subs wont reproduce 25Hz properly, nor will the B2's F218's WSX or other large subs. However, I'll explain what Paul means incase you dont understand it, which part of your program material that you mentioned will be using the frequency band down to 25Hz? Does the cinema system go down to 25Hz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnx21 Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 I don't know of any cabs on the market that will go down to 25Hz but just before Fane changed hands they told me that there new High output 18" driver will efficiently work at 18Hz but unfortunately I haven't had chance to play with the driver myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Riley Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Hi, Just to clarify my earlier point, I wasn't suggesting that the OP should try to get a system that can reproduce 25hz, I was just explaining what you would need to get even close (the -3db point for a stack of 4 quakes is 28hz, after a quick trip to EM's website), and that perhaps it's not the best idea! Also, the OP did say that he is looking for gear in the same quality/price bracket as the LS9 - i.e. good, pro quality, but not extravagent gear and, alongside the mention of the size required and those brands was why I thought that the PS10 would be a good, and very reasonably priced compromise on the basis of me listening to them in similar environments. PS10 cabinets cost some £800 (list) each inc vat, not 'thousands' BTW and the whole rig, including flying hardware and Camco Vortex 4s, subs and controller would have set you back about £7k list inc vat, which isn't at all bad. Anyway, the purpose of my advice was to give the OP a starting point, from listening to what Guy had to say, acknowledging the extremely limited number of options available, and knowing that speakers in that quality bracket generally sound consistantly good in appropriately sized environments. It's not meant to be some sort of online system consultancy, and perhaps now would be a good time to say: 1. Get a really good installer, or system consultant2. Have a really good listen to any options in your space so that you are able to decide what you want to work with. Peace, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluejudeto Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Thanks all for the advice, I appreciate the 25Hz is a bit optimistic given what's been said and maybe I'm a little to liberal in aspirations, but we're a Visual Arts Centre as well and given our prospective exhibitions this year and next, I don't doubt that we'll have some sonic arts coming in to match the installations. The New Leonardo's if anyone's heard of them - Mandlebrot and his buddies. The point about cinema sound is interesting, the sub spec'd is an 18" Krix which goes down to 29Hz. If I ever need extra earth moving equipment I guess there's no reason not to tap into that; there's a brute of an amp plus signal processing to match. I was concerned that the PS10's might not have enough air moving but if the experience says yes then I think I'll opt for them and the matching subs plus controller. We're in the North West of Ireland so budgets are not so clear cut when you've added our extra VAT rate, currency conversion and the in-it-up-to-their-elbow delivery charges, but 7K sterling seems about right. My director is more concerned with getting the building finished than much else at the mo', so if I slip a couple of grand extra in to the inflating budget he'll probably only froth from one side of his mouth. Our website's not up at the mo' but search Letterkenny Arts Centre and it has a link to the new building, June time opening probably if anyone's interested... Thanks again everyone and now I wonder what vocal mics shall I buy...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnx21 Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Thanks again everyone and now I wonder what vocal mics shall I buy...! Sure SM58 probably a good place to start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Riley Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 I was concerned that the PS10's might not have enough air moving but if the experience says yes then I think I'll opt for them and the matching subs plus controller. PS10s are just one guy from the internet's personal opinion - I've never heard your space, so please get a demo off fuzion or just hire some in to check that they're right before buying. Listen for coverage, volume, and whether they sound good with the kind of music you'll be putting through them. To put it in perspective WRT moving enough air, although the PS10s are little, spec sheet wise, they have the same output as mackie 450s, and although I haven't A/B compared the boxes I wouldn't be surprised if they go a bit louder than the 450s in real life as Mackie are a bit optimistic with their specs sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluejudeto Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 I was concerned that the PS10's might not have enough air moving but if the experience says yes then I think I'll opt for them and the matching subs plus controller. PS10s are just one guy from the internet's personal opinion - I've never heard your space, so please get a demo off fuzion or just hire some in to check that they're right before buying. Listen for coverage, volume, and whether they sound good with the kind of music you'll be putting through them. To put it in perspective WRT moving enough air, although the PS10s are little, spec sheet wise, they have the same output as mackie 450s, and although I haven't A/B compared the boxes I wouldn't be surprised if they go a bit louder than the 450s in real life as Mackie are a bit optimistic with their specs sometimes. thanks Matt, I was probably sure myself already but you never know 100% and I could have missed new gear somewhere that would do the job louder better cheaper and all that...and you try getting a demo here we are about as far away as you can get from anywhere and most of the dealers around here seem to think demo equals sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Sure SM58 probably a good place to start! For the kind of music we're talking about, and the overall budget now being talked about, I'd have though condensers would be well received - for this kind of stuff, especially if there's female clever vocals, I'd probably go (assuming you want Shure) 86/87? But plenty of decent kit in the popular makes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluejudeto Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Oh know...what have I started? Anyway I just did a Thomann check and you can even get 2 PS15's, flying gear, 2 LS1200 18" subs, decent amps and a controller for a little over 11000 Euro And mics, do you know what, I might just shell out on a few of Neumanns, just for the craic. Fly on the wall to see admin's faces when I give them the bill for a dozen U87's But seriously yes... condensers for vox, and of course this being Ireland who's got a favourite traditional fiddle mic? cos I can't stand that cheap piezo noise. Seems to me close mic'd C1000's/NT5's or the like are far better in a small space? I'm off to get drunk now I hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackerr Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Paul's also right to question 25Hz, a stack of 4 Quake subs wont reproduce 25Hz properly, nor will the B2's F218's WSX or other large subs. However, I'll explain what Paul means incase you dont understand it, which part of your program material that you mentioned will be using the frequency band down to 25Hz?Having just participated in a test of quite a few impressive subs, I can assure you that very few get down in the below 30Hz range with any real output. That said, does anyone have a url for EM Acoustics? Of the subs we tested I thought the Quakes were at the top of the pile, but I can't seem to find their site. For anyone following the link, as of Saturday Feb 2, the measured data is not yet posted. There is a lot of organising to be done to make all the TEF plots easy to follow. Hopefully it will be up soon. Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghance Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 d&b Ci80's. and if u want a bigger bottom, slip in a E12-sub. honest.. will work a treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 does anyone have a url for EM Acoustics? Of the subs we tested I thought the Quakes were at the top of the pile, but I can't seem to find their site.em acoustics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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