Multi Band Compression on your Live Mix .. Would You?

[Mark Payne]

Well I ask this because...

 

I dont do loads of studio mixdown stuff but I was working on some of the live event multitracks that I collected during 2006.

I now mix this stuff with an M7CL or LS9 because they are just so easy to get out and light pipe my AlesisHD into.

 

I have been experimenting with running the final LR through one of the rack fx configured as a multiband compressor. Sound great and gives me a bit more level and control to final output.

 

Hmmmm...... should I try this live? What do you think? Anyone done this, especially on M7 or LS9.

 

Cheers

 

Mark

[colebrooke]

Hi Mark,

I've tried this with a TC electronic triple C, in a situation where we had to work to a tight dB SPL limit. I was happy enough with the sound, but found I had to keep tweaking the threshold(s) with each song for the best results. Also, I found the controls a bit 'loose' on the TC? One slip on the make-up gain would really screw up the gain structure. I've not used the unit since... just another thing to set-up and set right. I think it's worth trying. I would be interested to hear what ratios etc you end up using. Maybe if you have success I'll have another go...!

 

best wishes

Justin

[TallMike]

Hi Mark,

 

I've asked this question before.. seems the general concensus is that it's not a bad idea to route your final mix through a Finalizer-type device - but as with all compression... too much may not have the desired effect!

 

It's a good idea if you're feeding a basic mix to TV or recording etc!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[jim b]

I've had the same studio experience with multi band compression and would also like to try it out live however I do find I spend a lot of time and quite a few passes of the same track to set the multiband comp to a point where I'm happy. For a touring situation I think the benefits would be good and achievable however for one-offs I'm dubious about whether it'd be a help or hindrance. I typically use a low threshold with a very low ratio for studio tracks.

 

Group and mix compression techniques which I've seen/heard used tend to blend compression on a bus (tends to be very heavy compression) mixed back with the uncompressed channels in the mix. Very much an effect as opposed to a gentle easing of dynamics but the results sounded good for the bands in question (rock). Compression was on buses for drums, guitars, percs.

 

I've also had an engineer request a standard compressor across the whole mix, he used it with more modest compression, it didn't sound bad and he kept it in for the whole tour so it was doing what he wanted. I can't remember the rationale for that one (I did ask at the time but can't remember the answer).

 

The major reason I can see for using a multiband compressor live (apart from any "quality" benefits it gives you) is to keep the mix between the goal posts of too loud and drowned by audience noise. I guess if you have a band which have naturally low dynamics you'll get less benefit from this but if you've got a band who go from one extreme to another then there could be a big benefit. Obviously the usual caveats about squashing the life out of everything apply.

 

Jim

[Bobbsy]

I use multiband compression a lot in my home studio situation and find it a very useful tool. However, even on similar source material I really can't find a "one size fits all" that works as I would like it on even fairly similar tracks...it takes a lot of tweaking.

 

For this reason, I'm pretty conservative in my use in a live setting. Except for an occasional experiment, I haven't ever put the full mix through a multiband. However, one use I DO have (and I should say my experience is theatre, not rock) is on vocal channels. On these, compressing the important mid-range frequencies can be a nice aid to intelligibility without as much extra risk of feedback as you so often get with simple compression.

 

Bob

[Rob_Beech]

Hi Mark.

 

I've not used it myself on a whole mix, although I have used the triple c amongst others on a few single channels and groups before with success. I have however seen it used and when setup properly it seems to work. As a couple of people have already mentioned, its probably not worth it for a one off show with a one off act in a one off venue but for a show or venue you work regularly it may well be worth giving it a try.

 

As for your setup, you may benefit a little more from it in a touring sense as you can save the settings for each type of song (fast slow loud soft etc) into the scene memory and recall these as necessary, possibly only recalling the rack settings if you wanted to keep the general mix the same be it with the various recall options or by just making everything else recall safe.

 

Again I think it will only see a noticeable benefit in bands with a large dynamic range, in a noisy environment, with strict spl limits. That probably narrows it down less than people may think.

 

I for one would certainly be interested to know how you go on with it.

 

 

Rob

[dbuckley]

I wouldn't.

[dan slv-tech]

I dont like useing compression on the whole mix,

 

I find a little hear and there helps control things, as music is dynamic, I like to hear the dynamincs when in a live situation,

Im just spec'ing a small tour with a band, spec'd a Triple C on vocals, 2 composer pros across the Drums , and a valve compressor on the Bass, the rest is straight through other than some gating.( lots of open mic soursce)

 

I used to use a DBX DDP across a mix on my smaller rig, really for more volume (lack of headroom) but to be honest it raised noise levels, and generally compromised the sound, I find a little in places is better than a lot in one-

Of course I have limiters on the drive rack but I never get anywhere close to them cutting in-

All thats needed is a little control........

 

 

Dan

[daveh]

Hi Mark

I've been using really subtle compression on FOH with rock bands for a good while now - never more than 6db @ 4:1 of squidge tho. I really dislike the current trend of crushing used on a lot mixes and also by broadcst stations.

I s'pose it's all down to personal taste really - give it a go!

Dave (still trying to sell the K2 & ML300!)

[Rob_Beech]

trend? maybe. Necessity? possibly that too.

 

Dan, I think generally speaking we'd all like to hear the full dynamic range of a show and whenever that is possible then there is no reason to use compression on the main mix. However I think one of the points that has been raised here is that unfortunately its not always possible to do this, sometimes you may have a strict spl limit that may be difficult to achieve whilst keeping the energy within the music and also the speech intel. up to a reasonable standard. Other times you may have a noisy environment where people are talking, shouting or even singing along. Whilst the latter of these is generally the audience having a good time it can still interfere with the mix. The music at its quietest moments may therefore disappear into the background noise which is not acceptable at all. the music at its loudest point added to the background noise level may be above the spl limit. The compressors job here may not be there to make it sound "better" only to sound more balanced and control the sound level in a more useable way.

The advantage of having a multiband compressor here is quite obvious. Sudden loud passages in the Low frequencies isn't going to compress the whole frequency range leaving the vocals squashed. in the same way as a screaming guitar solo isn't going leave the bass guitar dead.

 

 

Rob

[BlueShift]

Mark,

 

I use group compression a lot on our M7 (mixing for Hillsong at the Dominion). We send 5 channels out to the we will rock you desk to be sent to the various speaker clusters (vox L R, Band L R, Sub). It works particularly well on the vocals because we have a large vocal line with a leader, it allows the levels to adjust when he calls over the singing and when he pulls away - just smooths out the levels. I want to take this one step further though and compress the vox matrix with a multiband to help smooth out the overall sibilance or warmth with a bit more control. I might try it on sunday and I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Chris

[mackerr]

I use group compression a lot on our M7 (mixing for Hillsong at the Dominion). We send 5 channels out to the we will rock you desk to be sent to the various speaker clusters (vox L R, Band L R, Sub). It works particularly well on the vocals because we have a large vocal line with a leader, it allows the levels to adjust when he calls over the singing and when he pulls away - just smooths out the levels.

Am I correct in thinking that what you mean by this is that when the leader call out over the singing that the group comp essentially ducks the choir, and lets it come back up when he is done? If that is what you mean, the group comp will work for you, but most shows would not want all the vocals ducked when one singer gets loud. With the M7 you have the ability to use the input comps so each vocal is compressed individually. If you want to only set one comp, you can put all the vocal channels in a comp group, so one set of controls operates all the comps at once. If ducking is what you want, use the group comp, but if you want smooth the levels between the mics, use input comps. It's not like you're going to run out of them on an M7.

 

Mac

[BlueShift]

I use group compression a lot on our M7 (mixing for Hillsong at the Dominion). We send 5 channels out to the we will rock you desk to be sent to the various speaker clusters (vox L R, Band L R, Sub). It works particularly well on the vocals because we have a large vocal line with a leader, it allows the levels to adjust when he calls over the singing and when he pulls away - just smooths out the levels.

Am I correct in thinking that what you mean by this is that when the leader call out over the singing that the group comp essentially ducks the choir, and lets it come back up when he is done? If that is what you mean, the group comp will work for you, but most shows would not want all the vocals ducked when one singer gets loud. With the M7 you have the ability to use the input comps so each vocal is compressed individually. If you want to only set one comp, you can put all the vocal channels in a comp group, so one set of controls operates all the comps at once. If ducking is what you want, use the group comp, but if you want smooth the levels between the mics, use input comps. It's not like you're going to run out of them on an M7.

 

Mac

 

basically I use both input and output compression to achieve the desired result. So each vocal is lightly compressed just to reduce the dynamic range a little and so that kind of smooths out the vocal line as a whole, also prevents any group compression from working against me by preventing vocals that I dont want to be dominant from causing any group compression to have a ducking effect. However, the vocals are then routed to a matrix which has output compression. The vocals are also all assigned to a DCA (which is yamaha speak for their emulation of a VCA). so I can control the degree of the ducking effect of the group compression by riding the matrix output and the DCA. If I up the DCA I push the matrix into compression, if I up the matrix out im raising the output level of the compression. So riding these two faders allows me to control the level of compression quite effectivly. If I had a multiband compressor on the group output it would just give me a bit more control.

[Mark Payne]

Thanks guys for your responses... Blueshift, Mac, Rob, Dave, Dan, Jim and Bobbsy!

 

Blueshit... have a go with the M7 multiband on your vocal group/matrix thing and let us know how that feels. Do you have a rack FX slot free? (if not give up a reverb!).

 

 

Cheers

 

Mark

 

 

I use group compression a lot on our M7 (mixing for Hillsong at the Dominion). We send 5 channels out to the we will rock you desk to be sent to the various speaker clusters (vox L R, Band L R, Sub). It works particularly well on the vocals because we have a large vocal line with a leader, it allows the levels to adjust when he calls over the singing and when he pulls away - just smooths out the levels.

Am I correct in thinking that what you mean by this is that when the leader call out over the singing that the group comp essentially ducks the choir, and lets it come back up when he is done? If that is what you mean, the group comp will work for you, but most shows would not want all the vocals ducked when one singer gets loud. With the M7 you have the ability to use the input comps so each vocal is compressed individually. If you want to only set one comp, you can put all the vocal channels in a comp group, so one set of controls operates all the comps at once. If ducking is what you want, use the group comp, but if you want smooth the levels between the mics, use input comps. It's not like you're going to run out of them on an M7.

 

Mac

 

basically I use both input and output compression to achieve the desired result. So each vocal is lightly compressed just to reduce the dynamic range a little and so that kind of smooths out the vocal line as a whole, also prevents any group compression from working against me by preventing vocals that I dont want to be dominant from causing any group compression to have a ducking effect. However, the vocals are then routed to a matrix which has output compression. The vocals are also all assigned to a DCA (which is yamaha speak for their emulation of a VCA). so I can control the degree of the ducking effect of the group compression by riding the matrix output and the DCA. If I up the DCA I push the matrix into compression, if I up the matrix out im raising the output level of the compression. So riding these two faders allows me to control the level of compression quite effectivly. If I had a multiband compressor on the group output it would just give me a bit more control.

[jim b]

Blueshit...

He was only trying to help... :D

 

Jim