zonino Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Hi all, I have been having some problems with batch M1018 of Le Maitre medium white smokepots, one of the effects we use involves a smokepot becoming more horizontal than vertical, at this point some of the pots emit a flame of about a foot and deposit burning material on the stage, I don't know if these are in the UK, as I'm in America atm, they are however made in the UK so some of the batch may be over there, just incase any of you have this batch! thanks Stan ps. before anyone asks I've contacted Le Maitre about these! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Cain Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 ps. before anyone asks I've contacted Le Maitre about these! What was their reply??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wycome5 Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I may have read your post wrong (i.e. not understood what you meant) but smokes are meant to be fired vertically so that could be the problem rather than the lot of that particular item. Maybe they have worked like that before (I have only used smokes a couple of times) but it is just a thought. See here: http://www.lemaitre.co.uk/docs/SDS036%20Smokes.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Basson Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Hi all, one of the effects we use involves a smokepot becoming more horizontal than vertical, The product safety data sheet here: suggests that that is not how they're designed to be used. That might explain your problem! :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonino Posted November 11, 2006 Author Share Posted November 11, 2006 not had a reply from Le Maitre yet; the smokepots have been used in that way for about 6 years and as far as I can find in the archive there hasn't been a problem before, also the problem only started occuring with this batch (and only a couple of them at that) as this is on a ship I would guess (as having pyro on board is a major safety concern) that the supplying company has checked that the use of the product in this way is acceptable, but I can't guarantee this, once I have Le Maitre's response I'll post it :-) Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 As you're on a ship flying a flag of convenience, I'd be fairly confident in saying that it hasn't been checked at all. But that's quite irrelevant - I gained a rather low opinion of shipboard safety while working on them.Having had a staff captain (second in command) tell me to kill everyone in my liferaft by dunking them in the water one at a time, I completely lost confidence in the training of the officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonino Posted November 12, 2006 Author Share Posted November 12, 2006 maybe so Tomo, but as a contracted company in to do pyro for the production shows, given its the life of your company, would you not want to ensure that your company isn't responsible for the sinking of a multi-million dollar ship? especially with the suing-culture present in America today! and I wasn't aware you weren't allowed to have a sense of humour as an officer ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Some confusion may be creeping into this thread... Are we talking about pyro smoke as in plug-in coloured smokes that come in medium and large sizes (code 1213 - White Medium or code 1218 - White Large) or are we talking about smokepuff pyro pots as in hardwired items code 1222 standard or code 1222A for the large size. Other question is... are you firing these indoors or up on deck on an outdoor stage? Lincoln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 and I wasn't aware you weren't allowed to have a sense of humour as an officer ;-)This was during a emergency drill, and he was completely serious - that's what scared me.He told me "If your liferaft is full and there is someone in the water, put one person into the water and get the first one out. Then swap between everyone in the raft." I stared at him as if he was mad - that might work in the Mediterranean, but do that in the Atlantic and everybody aboard that raft is going to die.The most important rule of ocean survival is Do Not Get Wet. As to your pyro:Le Maitre will not accept any responsibility if you choose to operate their equipment outside of their recommendations, and as the guy who presses the button you may be held personally responsible for any accidents. So in your position I would refuse to fire any more of these, regardless of batch, until you receive clarification from LeMaitre.Going by the PSDS for CLP 1213 Medium White Smoke and CLP 1222 Medium Smoke Puff, both of which state "Angle Of Firing: Vertical", it sounds very much like you've been lucky up until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekij Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Just because you used a part in the past outside specification and it did what you wanted it to (fired the Pyro horizontally when it specifies vertically) does not mean that you have any expectation or guarantee that future batches will work the same way. The manufacturer has the right to modify the design at any time, and provided it still meets the specified operation (being fired vertically) does not need to warn or tell you. The bottom line is that if the product says fire vertically and you fire in any other orientation then you are liable for any bad things that may occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonino Posted November 14, 2006 Author Share Posted November 14, 2006 Some confusion may be creeping into this thread... Are we talking about pyro smoke as in plug-in coloured smokes that come in medium and large sizes (code 1213 - White Medium or code 1218 - White Large) or are we talking about smokepuff pyro pots as in hardwired items code 1222 standard or code 1222A for the large size. Other question is... are you firing these indoors or up on deck on an outdoor stage? Lincoln 2 * code 1213 - White Medium one remains vertical for the entire firing process, one is initially fired in a vertical position and shifts to a 45 degree angle at the end of the stage lift movement (while firing it probably doesn't even reach 25 degrees) and they are being fired indoors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewR Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 well I don't know about you, but I wouldn't refuse to do my job.This is a cruise line, you refuse to do your job and you will be dumped at the current port so fast you won't belive it!you have done the sensible thing and asked the manufacturers for advice, although I would put money on the response being "They are designed to be fired vertically" beeeeep! They have been used in that manner for several years without problem. Personally I would make clear my concerns to the PM and go over the safety plan to make sure that miss-fires are covered. (which I'm sure they are, fire being the biggest fear on ships n all)But unless the miss-fires are actually a real safety risk don't worry any more. (if they were then I would suggest going to the PM and if that doesn't work the safety officer) And the safety officers I met would have strangled that guy, who cares what ocean! but they were ex RN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 well I don't know about you, but I wouldn't refuse to do my job.Even if your boss told you that it was your job to walk along a flown truss with no safety gear?I sincerely doubt it! zonino has been asked to do something similar - the risk is not directly to him, and the probability of death is lower, but it's still there and easily controlled by doing as the manufacturer recommends.You'd have a hard time justifying it in court if you were ever unlucky enough to have an accident, especially as it doesn't cost anything. If you have good reason - "I won't do that particular thing because XYZ - it would be safer if we did ABC instead", your manager and his superiors are fairly likely to pay attention.I'm not saying "Sit there and forget to fire the pyro" or "Yell and scream about it" - talk to your manager and tell him you're not happy about using that particular effect in that way.There's probably some wiggle room to move the effect in time or (more likely) space to bring it within manufacturer's regs - suggest a possible solution. It may not be the one that is eventually chosen, but it shows that you're willing to work with them to acheive a safer effect. If they won't budge and want you to fire a pyro in a manner that it is not designed to be used, then Get it in writing.It should be already as both UK and US law require risk assessments - I'm assuming that you haven't seen them as you've not mentioned it yet. You'll often find that they'll back down when asked to put their name to that kind of thing - and if they do, then you've done all you can be reasonably expected to acheive. If they decide to fire you over it, you could sue for wrongful dismissal - however, you'll be better off NOT working for them if their attitude to safety concerns is "Hide it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightsource Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Tomo is correct on this thread. But to put it simply.... If you don't think it's right,,,,,,, then JUST DON'T DO it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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