itinerant baker Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Are these any good in environments where there is a lot of background noise, or will the acoustic tube pick stuff up and transmit it to the ear? I'm specificaly interested in them for during firework displays to be worn beneath ear defenders - which begs the further question are they significantly compromised if the tube is trapped under something? Anyone got any recomendations about where to get them (or earpieces in general)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 You might like to have a butchers at this posting as an alternative solution to your problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.k.roberts Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Are these any good in environments where there is a lot of background noise, or will the acoustic tube pick stuff up and transmit it to the ear? I'm specifically interested in them for during firework displays to be worn beneath ear defenders - which begs the further question are they significantly compromised if the tube is trapped under something?Anyone got any recommendations about where to get them (or earpieces in general)? The 'DIY' method suggested will work, but bear in mind one would have to be quite careful regarding altering the integrity of approved PPE. The output from acoustic eartubes is compromised if they are crushed, especially so if they are 'kinked'. More common though the attenuation caused by waxy build up in the earpiece itself (yes, it is as disgusting as it sounds!). The other alternative is ear defending headsets. Both these and acoustic eartubes are available from Canford Audio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itinerant baker Posted October 26, 2006 Author Share Posted October 26, 2006 Cheers both. DIY isn't really an option as the ear defenders are owned by the company - though I supose I could get some of my own and butcher them (but I'm a bit against getting my own PPE when I think it's the companies responsibility not to put us in any more danger than is strictly necesary - but hey, that's a whole other thread......) The ear defenders are also attached to helmets with visors, which all starts to add to the costs. At the moment we use the standard black plastic ear pieces that clip around the whole ear, which are OK but not always very good sound quality. I also want something that's diferentiated from these so no one thinks it's theirs. I picked up a cheap set on ebay this morning, and I'll post here how I get on with them once I've used them in anger. If they're any good I might invest in better ones (or keep using them if they're that good!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emsgeorge Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Ive had osme of the curly earpieces of ebay before, and they are of differing quality. The ones that we now use, are OTTO eaprieces, (also available from canford), and are used throughout the security industry for radios - so much that if you buy a Motorola curly earpiece, it will be an OTTO one, all be it rebranded as Motorola. OTTO kits also include options of ear plug's with a hole for the tube, so you can have them as PPE ear defenders as well. (although it might not be enought for your level of reduction!) - the advantage of using otto is that you can ask for PPE data sheets etc, and its all tested and approved as PPE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itinerant baker Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 Received them this morning, which was nice and prompt considering they're from Hong Kong. Build quality seems fine and whilst the tube seems squeezable with a bit of force, I doubt it'll be a problem with the spring from the ear defenders. Got a job tomorrow night so will get a chance to field test them then. Of course, being a 2.5 mil jack plug means I've got nothing to test them with at home. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocpyro Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Just to throw a feline amongst the grey flying vermin! With over fifteen years experience in firing large firework displays I would question the use of helmets with build in ear defenders ( I think you mean chainsaw helmets, mesh visors? thats another no no in my opinion). Whilst I now almost always wear ear defenders working a "rock" concerts, I seldom wear them on pyro displays. Now before I get jumped upon by the Health and Safety police, let me explain.Firstly, I am all in favour of wearing appropriate PPE at all times, you wouldn't work on one of my displays without, flame retardant overalls, safety boots / shoes, gloves and a helmet with perspex visor or goggles, the decision to wear ear defenders is a personal choice. When hand firing a display your eyes and ears are your best friend, when fireworks go wrong your ears can often be the first indication. For example if a shell fails to lift from a tube or only lifts 20 or30 feet above the tube then it makes a completely different sound to a healthy lift. It has happened to me more than once and has certainly saved me from injury or worse. It is also important that if firing in a team of two or three that you are able to communicate clearly with one another should anything go wrong. Manufacturers are striving more and more to reduce the noise generated by fireworks to comply with ever increasing legislation, and very few pyro company's include gratuitous noise in displays these days.If ear protection is worn it should only reduce the noise not try to block it out completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.k.roberts Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 I don't see lack hearing protection in this environment being defensable at all. There is no question that you are exceeding the legally specified action levels if you are that close to a show being fired and would be likely to sustain cumulative hearing damage. I would further contend that the malfunction of an item is equally audible whilst wearing ear protection. What I find more surprising is that, as an experienced firer, you are still hand firing professional shows - I would suggest that with the reqirement to undertake a risk assessment it would be difficult to justify this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappie Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Sorry, I have to agree with chocpyro. The benefits of hearing exactly what's going on at all times outweigh the need to isolate your ears. Maybe attenuators would be a better option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itinerant baker Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 I wouldn't be happy doing a display without the option of wearing ear defenders of some sort - I don't always have them down, or sometimes have one down and one up, but the fact I've got them on my helmet gives me the option to put them down if I need them. We generally use radios with earpieces for communication, and in the midst of a show it's often necessary to have the earpiece under the defender to hear any radio traffic - an undefended earpiece or the speaker from the hand piece just isn't going to be reliably audible. 99 shows out of 100 that we do will be fired by a firing system, and only rarely is the firer hand firing (or at least the one with the port fire in their hand, so to speak), it would probably be different if we did it the 'traditional' way. Incidently, we use chainsaw type helmets, but with plastic visors rather than mesh. Why do you consider them a no no - is it the mesh? We've often weighed up the pros and cons and still aren't 100% decided - after all mesh doesn't scratch or fog up like plastic does, though it could let small sparks through. In an ideal world we'ld like some of those mesh visors with built in goggles behind - but I don't think we'll be able to prise open the purse strings for that! Oh, and in my experience the ear defenders don't block out all noise, but lower it to a safer level and make it possible to hear radio comms over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.k.roberts Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Ear defenders ARE attenuators, none that I have experienced block out ALL sound (I imagine that would be technically quite difficult). Communications are very important in this type of work - which is where this thread started - so the use of ear defending comms. must surely be the preferred method of working.With regard to eye protection, the issues I have with the clear plastic visors is that they steam up, are easily scratched and almost impossible to see through if it is raining. I'm also not convinced they would stop a star. My own 'belt and braces' solution is a metal gauze helmet visor and a good quality pair of goggles underneath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lyall Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 now I don't know a first thing about fireworks but, being a cadet we have to wear ear defense for firing of rifles and such. I spoke to an adult who was partially deaf and he had got hold of a pair of ear defenders that had built in amplification in them. They would amplify the noise so that he could hear speech and such, but as soon as the noise became too loud the amplification would cease and the ear defenders acted as just normal ear defenders just whilst the noise was too loud, then they would revert back to amplifying the sound... Cant for the life of me remember what they were called though... seem like they might work very well in this situation though, but as I said, I'm have no knowledge on this kind of thing. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocpyro Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 P.K.Many shows are still hand fired in the traditional way, and even when using a firing system it is not unusual for someone standing by with a portfire in case of a system failure. All shows are risk assesed before hand and a risks are continually assesed from arrival on site until the van doors are closed and we head for home. A properlly completed risk assesment tells you how to carry out a task in a safe manner, not that you shouldn't carry out the task. After all you look both ways before you cross the road don't you? My point in the last sentence of my post was that if ear deffenders are to be worn then they indeed should be attenuators, however if you have to take them out or lift of the muff to hear an instuction called to you, then they are no good. If I tell a member of crew to move because a cake suddenly decides it's afraid of hieghts then I dont want them to have to fiddle with their ear deffeders and then say WHAT!!! As for eye protection mesh helments along with goggles are ok. however my personal choice is a helmet with a built in perspex pull down visor, we have found ones that the visor pulls down from inside the helmet, if cared for well they don't scratch to badly and they only come down to the tip of your nose so heavy breathing doesn't steam them up. Oh and you canreplace the visor for a few £££'s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanzy Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 These are quite good if you want to have comms via radio as you can use seperate radiohttp://img-europe.electrocomponents.com/images/C358433-21.jpgThey won't do the gated attenuation though you'd need these for thathttp://img-europe.electrocomponents.com/images/C765791-21.jpgThey're fully adjustable for your own preferences so you don't have to completely attenuate the bangs (protection at 8kHz up to 37.2dB), you can just take it down enough to prevent injury. They amplify speech and incidental noise until the impulse noise triggers the attenuation to the level you choose. The safety kit exists to prevent injury, there's no excuse for allowing injury to continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slipstream Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I have never finished a pyro show with ringing ears - can't say that for live music 5 min in the pit with plugs and ED's and they will ring however. For pyro on a hard site near a wall the rebounded noise is a pest and I would consider ear defenders, but otherwise no. If a show is going electrically then the grunt on standby needs the full cover earpiece / boom mic fitted to their radios (Motorola make a nice one) as the rest of the crew and in particular the guy with the show plot is too far away to instruct the hand firer, but a crew all hand firing just pick up too much mic noise or cannot operate a PTT quickly enough to make it an option in my book. So when did PK give up hand firing? I know I have hand fired shows with him when he was with FF many years ago...... Electric firing is great for bigger more complex shows but the low budget stuff just does not merit it so for most firework companies hand firing is still the norm. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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