A&H ML4000

[J Pearce]

On Sunday I am running sound for a rock gig, this will be my first time on a VCA desk.

The desk is a 40ch A&H ML4000. I have read and reread the manual, but thought I'd check here to see if the massed wisdom of BR had any knowledge to impart either on using VCA desks or the ML4000

 

I was envisaging using the VCAs much as I would usually use groups, then use the groups purely for grouped inserts.

[gingertom]

Not sure whether or not you clocked this link on the A & H website, but I stumbled across it while looking for teaching aids:

 

http://www.allen-heath.com/DL/vca_book.pdf

[Rob_Beech]

The desk is not unlike most other VCA desks.

 

Fairly straight forward to use.

 

Press the edit group button (above the mute groups in the master section)

press the desired VCA group master (mute button above vca 1 to 8) then select and deselect the channels you want to assign to that group. then press the next group master until finished. press the edit groups button to exit.

 

 

Same applies with mute groups.

 

 

Rob

 

Edit : or look at that pdf :D

[dbuckley]

I was envisaging using the VCAs much as I would usually use groups, then use the groups purely for grouped inserts.

 

Thats it in one. At the lower cost end of the market VCAs are, well, missing, so we cheapskates use groups as we would like to use VCAs. But groups are a poor substitute for VCAs, particularly in respect of post fade auxes...

 

The digital revolution is solving the missing VCA problem, as everything in a digital mixer is done, well, digitally, they all have VCA functionality (sometimes with a buzzy name like DCA) as its all just software, so no additional cost. In fact its groups that have the cost, as theres those awkward people who want analogue group inserts on a digital desk...

[J Pearce]

Wonderful, I thought that seemed logical.

 

Thank you all.

[jim b]

Another thing to think about with VCAs is what inputs you group together onto them as it's often different to how you'd group things through an audio subgroup. For a rock and roll show I tend to assign kick and snare to the same VCA, all the toms to another, hats and overheads to a third plus whatever seems logical for the rest of the backline and vocals. I find this means I can quickly pull a mix round for an unfamiliar band who suddenly go from intimate acoustic songs with brushes to full on rocking out without much warning. This may seem illogical to you but the key thing with VCAs is to think things through before you assign them. Also don't forget they're just an additional tool if you find it's taking too long or confusing you then you don't have to use them.

 

In terms of how I soundcheck with VCAs. I put them at zero for checking each channel the usual way and then get the things on each VCA balanced. Then I use the VCAs to put the differing groups at the right level with the whole band playing. Obviously don't forget that adjustments at each channel are needed too.

 

You can use the audio groups for processing at the same time but if it's your first time on the board think carefully before you make a rod for your back.

 

Also if you're using mute groups as well as the mutes on each VCA then take some time to familiarise yourself with the logic of the ML4000 it can trip you up. What I tend to do after sound check is open all the channels and engage whichever mute I want to use, normally the VCAs, which means that when you disengage those your channels open up and you're not flailing around at mute groups and individual channels.

 

Jim

[J Pearce]

To report back, just got home from the gig.

 

Once I had assigned the VCAs and mute groups mixing was a dream. No more trying to pull down 3 faders and retain relative levels, no more pulling reverb returns down with the subgroup.

I shall miss VCAs when I next mix...

 

As an aside WSX subs are amazing! Very nice rig at the venue; 4 W8Cs, 4 WSXs, 4 HK monitors, huge drum monitor, A&H ML4000, 6 BDX graphics, Klark technic gates, BSS compressors, various yamaha reverbs/multi fx.

I used the groups for compression/gating.

 

Thank you all for your advice, I took some useful ideas from it.

 

Cheers!

[charlyfarly]

I shall miss VCAs when I next mix...

 

;) Glad you had a good experience! Welcome to the "pouty bottom lip" club when you have to do a complex(ish) mix on a desk with only groups! :)

[Mark Payne]

Ah but...

 

Yes the VCAs makes sense ... its all cool but:

 

When you are mixing for multiple speaker systems (Mains, front fill, wide side fill, rear fills, hearing loop mix, backstage VIP area feed etc etc you want your matrix section. Matrix is derived from subgroups (and LR and M obviously). As a VCA master is a virtual control bus in the console (not an audio bus),it cannot be used in any way to feed audio onto matrix.

 

So... when you use a console like the ML5000 you end up assigning to VCA ...AND... routing to groups for further matrix feeds. The channels will be assigned to LR but the subgroups will NOT be assigned to LR so the subgroup assignment will have no effect on the main LR mix bus here. The groups are now what I call "Matrix Fodder"

 

Remember it also makes lots of sense to have your main LR system on the matrix, not on the LR outs. In this way you can derive other speaker system matrix feeds from the LR bus and still mute the LR speaker system independant of the other speaker systems.

 

Now you can quickly make a vocal up mix fro your rear fills, a conference mic heavy mix for your VIPs, a simple "no noise" (drums guitars etc) for your hearing loop, a guitar and drum light mix for your front fills. A mono'd up mix for your wide sides.

 

This all needs subgroups (and matrix ... 8 of each please...)

 

So VCA is a part of the story but dont forget subgroups.

 

Oh and festival spec... 10 bands in a day and I like to have at least 4 groups "in the wings" with comps sitting on them. I can route through to comp up the extra three channels of brass that were not on the band's spec etc etc.

 

While we are in A&H speak, I have advised some of my customers away from say an ML3000 (8 VCA 4 Sub Groups) and onto a GL2800 (No VCA 8 Sub Groups) for this very reason. The GL2800 is much cheaper and it has an extra aux (and its a stereo one) thrown in. Some times you want the groups.

 

Hope this is not in any way contradictory to this post and I hope I am making sense!

 

Peace

 

Mark

 

 

 

I shall miss VCAs when I next mix...

 

:) Glad you had a good experience! Welcome to the "pouty bottom lip" club when you have to do a complex(ish) mix on a desk with only groups! :)

[jim b]

Not OT at all really, good idea of the bigger picture, especially the stuff about matrix usage which is what is often forgotten when people are thinking through designs for a system. Fine, the band's engineer is happy because you've got him an all singing all dancing VCA desk but how are you going to feed all the fills around the venue? I think the subgroups were left untouched previously as it was assumed the OP had a handle on them.

 

A nifty trick I've seen employed using audio groups and VCAs is to use them to compress something in a group and then assign the same instrument to a VCA you can then use the audio group and the VCA group to control how much compression you apply to the group. i.e. if you think it needs to be more compressed lower the group volume and increase the VCA volume. Sort of a remote control for the threshold on the comp. Conversely if it sounds too compressed then open up the group and back off the VCA. Lets you keep your eyes on the stage/cue sheet. The same technique would obviously work using the input fader(s) and the group.

 

The ML3k comment reminded me of the discussion I had with Mark about how the ML3k now seems a little bit in limbo in that segment of the market. Now you've got a GL2800 and the new GL2800M competing for business I think you'll see less new ML3ks being bought. IMHO of course.

 

Jim

[J Pearce]

I understand the whole matrix/VCA problem. For the gig on Sunday it was simple LR stuff, so I was able to use the groups for compression and gating. But I can see problems would arise if I had delay stacks, infills, remote VIP rooms etc...

 

As for the remote threshold idea, it was something I discovered in the course of the gig and used a lot once I had discovered it.

[Rob_Beech]

Agreed about the Ml3000 in limbo.

 

nothing directly wrong with the board its just become a bit lost in the market.

 

As for the GL2800M, I just want to use one to confirm everything is as good as it looks then its possible I'll have one.

 

Rob

[lifeisacabaret]

Something I dont quite understand with the GL2800M, is if the aux sends for channels are controlled by the 16 pots, which buss do the faders feed?

[mackerr]

There is no dedicated mix out in addition to the 16 aux mixes. The input faders control the level of the send to any post fader mix. They have no effect on mixes that are pre fader.

 

Mac

[Ben Langfeld]

The input faders control the level of the send to any post fader mix. They have no effect on mixes that are pre fader.

Useful in monitor land as a catch-all if a particular source begins to feed back. Is a lot quicker than trying to take it down in all the mixes that it's feeding back through. Also useful when a source needs to be taken out of all mixes (specials etc).