Just Some Bloke Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I was chatting recently about colour mixing in washlights et al and bemoaning the fact that it’s not a particularly user friendly experience. If you wanted to mix a colour like 156 (chocolate) by subtractive mixing of cyan, magenta and yellow you’d be hard pushed to know where to start without looking at a “cheat sheet”. There must be a more user friendly way of doing it, I thought. So I’ve come up with this plan which I thought I’d run up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes it, as they used to say. Imagine setting up a sound system with just a 3 band graphic. Then think how much easier it is with a 31 band graphic. Imagine something similar with colours of light. Instead of having just 3 channels of software, you have a little box, like a 15-band graphic, but with 15 sliders representing separate colours. The box has a brain which converts your settings into CMY and sends out the appropriate data. The 15 colours could be, for instance, LavenderPurpleBlueCyanGreenGoldStrawYellowAmberOrangeRedMagentaPinkSalmonND Each slider would add a relative amount of that colour from 0% (bottom position) to 100% (top position). So, instead of starting by thinking “I want a colour a bit like 147”, you might think “I want something with a bit of pale orange, a little pink and a touch of gold”. You’d simply bring up relative amounts of each slider and see what happens in real time (live on stage or in WYSIWIG if you prefer). Don’t you think this would make colour mixing much more user friendly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Although I have very limited experience of CMY lights (limited to playing about at the suppliers) I do know its a lot easier to play colors on a Hog3 than on a desk that understands less about CMY. Thus I fully support the notion that three sliders for CMY is a really bad idea. Most folks I've talked to dont get that with CMY mixing "the manual way" that one of the three sliders should always be at 100%. Its hard enough to find a color with fiddling all three, when you need to use just two its maddening, so better software definitely helps. I've fallen for the HSI approach, as long as I dont believe that the colours on the on-screen colour wheel are going to be at all similar to what comes out the light :P Gamuts. I'm not sure having lots of sliders would be better than HSI, but I understand where you're coming from, you're turning a subtractive process into an additive one, and that may be very comfortable for folks with an additive mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben.suffolk Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Its an interesting concept, and it sounds like it could be quite easy to use, given the right colours to mix. Do you have any thoughts on the actual equations to calculate the CMY values. I suspect it might be quite tricky. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam FitzG Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Any system would also have to know what lantern you were using; as the colour temperature, age and intensity of the source along with different manufacturers ideas of what the three colours of CYM should be and how fast the graduation runs across the flag, would all affect the values necessary to achieve the colours you require. Then the values would be biased on the original programmers ideas of the colours. Sounds like a head wreck to implement.That aside I like the three index wheels for the CYM or RGB, I would find that simpler to operate than a bank of faders. My 0.02c Liam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Frazer Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Most folks I've talked to don't get that with CMY mixing "the manual way" that one of the three sliders should always be at 100%. Its hard enough to find a colour with fiddling all three, when you need to use just two its maddening, so better software definitely helps. I'm sorry but can you please tell me how you get a L201 Approximation out of a CMY fixture with one of the colours at full saturation? If you are saying that you should always have one of your CMY channels at full when trying to mix a colour you are very mistaken. If however I am misinterpreting what you are saying then you have my apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekij Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I've been using computers for so long I think in RGB so it wouldn't be any use for me. I also suspect that your 15 sliders will have lots of mutually exclusive combinations (where one slider calls for no Yellow and another calls for much yellow, push up both sliders to 100% produces an impossible situation). Probably better to use a PC to pick the colour you want off a large palette of colours and then "ask" what the RGB (or CMY) of it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 A few new consoles (eg Congo v4.2 and Hog3) have built-in graphical colour pickers which use the HSI model.It's not perfect, but it's close enough to get an instant approximation for tweaking. You concept of lots of 'sliders' of colours is actually something that would be great in the fixture itself - steal the concept of a graphic eq wholesale, and have a lot of pure (narrowband) colour lightsources instead of just three (wide-band) light sources. It's all waves, innit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick S Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I honestly think it would be a usability nightmare - I'd far prefer using something along the lines of the OS X color picker, which gives me a three slider CMY system, a colour wheel, and a set pallete of colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Being picky... would that not also give you 15 channels instead of 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick S Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Oops, should have explained myself: You have the option to use a color picker (which obviously requires some form of cursor, so no sliders), a CMY 3 slider system, or a series of preset colours. An example on a hypothetical lighting board: I could control the color of a fixture using the standard CMY sliders, using the mouse to pick the rough colour from a color wheel, or select a "lavander" preset (using softkeys, maybe? On reflection, I'm not sure the best way of implementing it...). Anyway, just some random musings of mine... Assuming you were referring to me and not the previous post :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 I'm sorry but can you please tell me how you get a L201 Approximation out of a CMY fixture with one of the colours at full saturation? ... If you are saying that you should always have one of your CMY channels at full when trying to mix a colour you are very mistaken. ... If however I am misinterpreting what you are saying then you have my apologies. Let me try it again. What I tried to say was: To produce any color (except black!) using CMY only two of the three subtractive filters should be used. Adding the third reduces intensity unnecessarily. Are we at one now? Though to be honest, since I have a choice of which color goes to 100% saturation then of course I can produce L201, but it'll be very very very dim, as the other two filters will be near 100% saturation also. Might be better off with a bit of real L103 in front of your Maglite :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 If I was to create a console in this day and age of colour mixing, instead of the OP's idea, I would instead use pallets and motorised faders, so you select a pallet colour, the faders are moved to the correct values, and then you can fine tune using the faders. So still keep the three faders, but digitise the 'cheat sheet'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 You concept of lots of 'sliders' of colours is actually something that would be great in the fixture itself - steal the concept of a graphic eq wholesale, and have a lot of pure (narrowband) colour lightsources instead of just three (wide-band) light sources. The concept of this sounds amazing,but the (service) tech in me shudders and says "VL7 all over again" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Oops, should have explained myself: You have the option to use a color picker (which obviously requires some form of cursor, so no sliders), a CMY 3 slider system, or a series of preset colours. Assuming you were referring to me and not the previous post :P Yeah, sorry. Do you mean something like this? http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Dale00/cym.jpg That's sort of a colour picker thing but you can still adjust the CYM channels individually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgray Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 you may be interested in David Cunningham's (inventor of the S4) last two patents, which can be viewed here : http://www.mikewoodconsulting.com/patentdb..._fd4=cunningham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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