36deg S4 or 26deg S4 nearer the stage?

[SceneMaster]

Bit of a retarded question I suppose however… I have just been presented with a show plan and 18 S4s for FOH cover… 12 of them are 26deg the remain 6 are 36deg.

 

The way I do my front of house cover in this venue works and has been tried and tested (crossing areas of lights giving a 3x3 grid in cool and warm. Well to be fair because this show doesn’t need 3x3 grid but only a 2x3 grid I have got a proper independent cold and warm cover with half of the S4s cool the other half warm). However I have always done this with all 26deg lights however this time I have a mixture. The FOH bar system is three bars 2 fairly close together (about 5m apart and the first one stage wards being about 5 metres from the front of the stage) and the last one about 10m behind the second of the first bars about 20m from the stage ish probably a little less about 18m or so.

 

I understand beam angles perfectly, the larger the beam angel the wider the spread, however do I rig the 36s on the first bar or the back bar.

 

First bar gives me a larger beam spread which a 26deg couldn’t do from the position but this may even after spotting down be too large (plus we put frost in everything).

 

Backbar doesn’t seem to give an obvious advantage and the spread is going to be much wider due to the throw distance however… The first two bars are always paired this back on isn’t so I would prefer to keep the first two bars 26deg as they are paired and the back one the 36deg. What is the normal thing to do?

 

The theatre I casually rig for (pro) have 26deg on there FOH bridges and 19deg on there H booms and V booms (nearer than FOH obviously) however I have always presume the nearer 19deg was due to the side angle these lights were coming in from being quite tight not the distance from the stage.

 

Any thoughts would be much appreciated. I pretty sure I know what I am going to do… but it would be nice to hear some opinions on it.

 

Thanks,

[Tomo]

Sidelight maybe?

 

I'm kind of at a loss as to why you'd be 'presented' with lights specifically for FOH cover - every design I've done, it's been a case of

"These are the bars and the hanging points, this is the house stock, that is your hire budget. Make it look good."

(Sometimes I even got a script - Bliss!)

The hire budget has often been zero, so I've only got house stock.

 

But I can hang it anywhere I can - I'd never accept "This stuff must be FOH" unless there were specific reasons it couldn't be anywhere else.

 

You don't have to use all the house stock - I'd prefer not to as it gives me a few spares in case of unexpected changes/failures.

 

Remember that you must have a need for every single light in the rig - even if it's purpose is simply "Spare in case X dies". Don't rig everything just because you have it - if you have 'spare' lanterns, maybe you should leave them spare.

[Just Some Bloke]

I have just been presented with a show plan ... {snip}

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "show plan".

 

If you mean a rig plan, then rig to that. Put the lanterns wherever it tells you to put them or put the 26 degrees wherever it asks for specials and keep the 36 degrees for washes.

 

If you mean a list of cues, then you have to decide what works best for you.

 

What is the normal thing to do?

 

There isn't a normal thing - it all depends on your venue and what you want to achieve.

A 3x3 grid of cool and warm sounds like an excellent idea (assuming that would work for the show) so just do whatever would give you that.

 

Sitting here without knowing the venue or having scale plans and sections plus a script, chat with director/designer, stock list, hire budget, etc we really can't help. If in doubt, try them in different places and go with what works best. Trial and error is all part of the fun!

[SceneMaster]

Point about spare lanterns are valid… yes… and I never put random unjustified lights in (in this case I don’t have the channels dimmer wise anyway we have limited power and I am not going to waste my power/dimmers pointlessly) however this isn’t a question of spare lanterns. I was given a show to design and I have designed in this venue quite a few times (it isn’t quite pro theatre however it isn’t village hall, one of these larges has about 15 different function rooms/venues one of them being a 450-500ish seat poorly maintained theatre).

 

Every light in my rig is justified purely because a the venue have hardly any decent lights and what is the point of hanging a light randomly I really don’t have the time to do that when hanging about 50 odd lights (justified specials, FOH and colour washes although you could count more like 60 if you take CODA 3 cells as separate entities, not focus wise but colour and plotting wise) this being an amdram show and amdram crew.

 

Anyway my question was I have designed my FOH cover… I have to hire in the majority of my proper lighting equipment (such as the FOH) but the venue do have pars ect. My principle FOH rig has and always has had either 12 or 18 S4s depending on whether it is an open stage. Usually I get 26degs which work great and fit the venue perfectly however due to the hire company being unable to supply all 26degs this time, I was quite happy to take the 6x 36deg. I know peoples reaction to this will be you should have got what you wanted well… no… this hire company well more a production company than a hire company and their main focus is production solutions not dry hire (I think) have been great to me over the years giving me good deals on the jobs I do and so if they say that that’s all they can supply I am quite happy to take that.

 

I just wondering which position people would say is the norm for wider angle profiles… nearer the stage (more cover for less throw) or further away.

 

So which is more normal… I know it depends on the situation and I will probably play for my own learning and interest anyway when I get into the venue however which is more the norm?

 

P.S

 

Sorry my phrasing in I have just been given a plot was little wrong (I am tired I have just had 3 long exams today…) I have been designing this show for the last 2-3months…lighting plot sorted… script sorted… looks/state notes sorted… plan from the previous created… director happy, job design wise done I just need to implement it, however this S4 issue only came up recently (due to the hire only being confirmed in the last week due to budget issues ect…).

 

Edit: forgot to add… side light you have got to be joking… there are FOH booms for about 3 pars… and that’s it… and as for onstage booms would love to have some but there is no space the legs take most of the wings themselves with about another metre after that for actors walking ect…

[Just Some Bloke]

I just wondering which position people would say is the norm for wider angle profiles… nearer the stage (more cover for less throw) or further away.

You answer your own question! Nearer the stage a 36 deg will give you a similar cover to a 26 deg further away. You're the LD - it's up to you! The joy of design (set, costume, lighting, sound etc.) is that there are no rules and you can do whatever you want.

 

You ask about what is normal and you're right in the answer you give. Normally the further away from the stage you go, then the narrower the angled required from your profiles. But don't forget that doesn't mean you have to stick to the norms - as I keep saying "do whatever works for you". Come up with a plan and if it doesn't work then change it. That's what all LDs do from novice to top name.

 

Enjoy! ;)

[Ellis]

Ideally, you need to balance the luminous intensity of the 26deg and 36 deg lights without affecting the colour temperature by diming.

 

You say that you need a 3x2 grid this year. Can you do this with just 12 26 deg lights? If so, you have 6 36 deg profiles to play with - break-ups meethinks - but you will never catch me lighting a show without at least one gobo.

 

If not, you may want to stick with your 3x3 but, depending on the depth of your stage, use the 26's for US and DS and the 36's for mid stage.

[SceneMaster]

Well I don’t think a 36deg on the back bar would be of any use it would probably cover half the stage without spotting down I certainly don’t want that. I like the idea of the 36degs on the middle bar doing mid stage washing into the upstage coverage of 6 26deg which they will be paired with and leaving the separate 6 26s doing down stage from the back bar.

 

A quick question about light intensity… I presume that when say a 26 and a 36 were rigged side by side and focused on the same position the 36 would give much larger coverage (well I knew this) but with less intensity than the 26 which would be less coverage but higher intensity or are the intensity of the beam the same (considering it is the same throw)?

 

I am sorry my questions sound a little stupid but I have just realised although I have designed a fair few number of shows my FOH cover has always been either the same degree in all lights or variable zooms and when focusing those I hadn’t really though about how I was effecting the beam angle (well I don’t usually do the physical focusing like most designers on shows they have actually designed).

 

Thanks for the useful info so far,

[Just Some Bloke]

The light generated by both will be exactly the same (it's the same back end). So you'll get the same amount of light over a wider area with the 36s than with the 26s. Thus each square metre, for instance, will appear less bright. With the 26s the same amount of light gets to a smaller area so each square metre will appear brighter.

[SceneMaster]

That makes perfect sense. So I think there is no way I can but the 36degs on the back bar as that just doesn’t make sense. So really it’s a question of putting them on the first or second bar which is something I will just need to try out when I am there is only 5m difference so I guess it is just a case of experimentation.

 

To be fair though there probably isn’t a massive difference as I think between a 26 and a 36 (there is obviously a fair bit and noticeable but not massive) so I am probably making a bigger deal out of this than I should.

[SimonW]

The light generated by both will be exactly the same (it's the same back end). So you'll get the same amount of light over a wider area with the 36s than with the 26s.

 

There's also the optical efficiency of the lens to consider. The 26 degree has a single lens in its tube, whereas the

36 degree units have a matched pair of lenses - so you lose more light output to the lens in the 36 degree unit.

 

Simon.

[Tomo]

Incidentally, are you aware that you can easily swap lenses on the Source4?

 

Assuming that your budget and hire orders haven't been set in stone yet, you could hire *just* the 26 degree lenses from somewhere else, and swap them out yourself.

 

It can be a bit fiddly, but it's not difficult.

[SceneMaster]

Yeah I was aware that you can swap lenses out as the lens tube are all the same (with standard S4s) and have various different markings inside for the different positions of the different size lens. S4 assembling races certainly make the annual dark periods at the theatre in the summer more fun but with 60 odd S4s to disassemble, clean, assemble and PAT test you certainly get to know your way around them fairly well. As you said Tomo the disassembly/assembling of the lens tube is a bit of a fiddle, especially getting the two nut and bolts back in (although I found a solution to make that easier).

 

However I didn’t realise you could actually hire the lens as separate entities, probably due to my lack of experience. Maybe worth it next time, however for this show I am quite happy with the 36degs and I am going to have a play and see what happens.

[Ellis]

I think Tomo was suggesting hiring the lens tube assemblies, not the individual pieces of glass!

[Tomo]

I think Tomo was suggesting hiring the lens tube assemblies, not the individual pieces of glass!

Yeah - the tube, not the bits of glass.

The only difference between a Source4 5 deg and a Source4 90 deg is the lens assembly on the end - takes a couple of minutes to swap out.