Andrew C Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 As for harnesses, Hugesy has a point. You'd be standing on the stage before the harness had any effect!So how about a safe system of work? A ladder may be almost the last resort used under WAHR, but far safer than climbing onto, and working from truss without a harness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilf dLampy Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Taking a slight tangent.......One thing I'd suggest for people doing similar things is before posting any pictures online to a public area (and that isn't just limited to the Blue Room), have a check to see if anything could be interpreted as bad practice, unsafe, or wrong. I know I've got pictures of crew doing things they perhaps shouldn't, and could definitely be read wrong out of context, that I've put in more private photo albums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 One thing I'd suggest for people doing similar things is before posting any pictures online to a public area (and that isn't just limited to the Blue Room), have a check to see if anything could be interpreted as bad practice, unsafe, or wrong. I know I've got pictures of crew doing things they perhaps shouldn't, and could definitely be read wrong out of context, that I've put in more private photo albums. It would be better if people didn't do the unsafe things in the first place.The 2 lads sat on top of the truss don't need to be there. To be blunt, if you're stupid enough to do it then you're not in a position to complain when someone publishes the photos and points it out.Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Im of a different opinion.I believe that Im safer working on top of a suitable truss than trying to focus from a ladder.The fall distance is the same however the chance of falling is reduced. Personal opinion I know but thats what my risk assesment will say. Do have to agree thou if theres no reason to be on the truss you shouldnt be on it.Bit like standing at the top of a zarge to admire the view...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon T Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 From what conclusion do you draw that the 2 people on the truss didnt need to be there? For all we know they could have been running/connecting soca to the pars.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave singleton Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Agreed! Sadly alot of the time on jobs that arnt quite as high calabre as touring shows etc you dont have people as hot on health and saftey therefore you tend to find people doing stupid things. I cant think of a single job I've been working on out of hundreds where people havent been doing things they shouldnt. I no of 3 very respected theatres in the south where many things go on that shouldnt but no-one seems to think about saftey the minute you get on the job, all they do is get the show up. I'm amased at how there is so few accidents a year in comparison to people doing stupid things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonino Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 From what conclusion do you draw that the 2 people on the truss didnt need to be there? For all we know they could have been running/connecting soca to the pars.... need for a person up there? maybe, 2? from what I can infer from the picture - probably not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilf dLampy Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 need for a person up there? maybe, 2? from what I can infer from the picture - probably not!This was kind of my point- the photo takes a snapshot (literally) of a moment in time- without the surrounding context it is all too easy to jump to conclusions. For example, it may be that the chappie dressed in black (who may possibly be wearing a black harness securely attached to the truss by a short strop where we can't see it) has got his foot caught- is in pain- and his friend has just popped up the truss to pull his foot out (after doing a quick on-the-spot risk assesment of his planned course of action and filling in form 172b section IV). Alternatively they could be two potential members of "Fathers for Justice" who are getting in position to stage a protest and have nothing to do with the event crew. We just don't know. That's why I try and avoid publicly posting any pictures that may possibly be seen as unsafe- apart from anything else it's bad advertising for your company/organisation when the Blue Room sees it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughesy Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 This was kind of my point- the photo takes a snapshot (literally) of a moment in time- without the surrounding context it is all too easy to jump to conclusions.Please bear with me on this, I don't say too much too often, but I felt quite strongly about this. As I stated previously, I wonder how much use harnesses and fall arrest equipment would have been in this situation. The 2 people on the truss may be there because it was deemed to be safer that way. Safety equipment may have been omitted because it can hamper your movements in situations such as those shown. It can be seen from the photos that there are 6 lamp bars, moving lights, drapes (and assume cabling, soca, data, etc) up there. I know that if I were tying on a drape at 3m I would rather work from a solid base such as a scaffold tower, a boom or scissor lift or part of a truss structure with assistance (one tying, one holding) than sideways off of a ladder whilst trying to hold the drape and tie it myself. This would enable you to work at a sensible height and in moderate safety as opposed to dangerously. I am not attempting to provide excuses for what we see here, however I don't believe the situation is as bad as has been made out. Ridiculous comments like "it's the bit of truss supported by the Zargees that worries me!" are not helpful as a little closer look shows this clearly isn't the case. Did we all not agree in the Tallescope thread that repeatedly climbing up and down a ladder to perform a task and then moving it can cause the operative to get very tired, very quickly. We must remember there is an element of danger in this aswell. I'm sure that we've all seen people in the past standing on handrails, flight cases, chairs, etc stretching up to tie on drapes or address fixtures, hey some of us may even admit to it. If the situation has been assessed then is it not right, and indeed our obligation to carry out our jobs in the safest way possible. I know that many of us here work at far greater heights than these and take our jobs very seriously indeed. The outlay on equipment, training and insurance is huge and is not to be taken lightly. We do not assume anything and always check to make sure things have been done correctly. We cannot say for sure what is going on here and it is dangerous to guess or presume reasoning for anything. I wonder whether the issue here is because they are sat on truss. We all know it is bad practise to sit, operate, rig, focus, whatever from the platform of a truss span (assuming it isn't T2 and you haven't had the relevant training and put in place the correct procedures), yet would that still be so wrong if you climbed onto a span a working height to put a gel into a source four that was over slung on a piece of A-type (using an appropriate clamp! :) ). Serious injury may result at this height, that is true, but we need to be real about the heights involved here, what we may deal with on a regular basis and what is shown here may be worlds apart. Again, I'm not excusing any bad practise and I'm normally the first to point it out, but where do we draw the line. At what height does it become unsafe to climb on a structure, at what current rating does it become unsafe for a general technician to wire a plug, at what size does it become unsafe for one man to lift a box and after how many hours should we break and rest. All questions we should be asking ourselves as we go about our business. As regards the wearing of hard hats, the picture clearly shows that very little is going on. The two people on the truss are simply sat there, waiting to commence their next task, waiting whilst the people who are going to be below them when they do this return form getting their hard hats (go with me on this, it's possible). The moving lights on the uprights seem to be a concern, but these may have been rigged by someone wearing a harness and hauled up using a suitable rope and pulley. As it has been said, this photo only provides us with a snapshot of how this event was put together. It is not safe or fair to assume that either of these two people rigged everything themselves without any sort of protection. I would like to know if these photos would be remissible evidence if an accident had happened at height or otherwise, showing that safety precautions were not being followed and that dangerous activities were taking place on this site. I am not suggesting that they would not be used if they showed something dangerous that was directly linked to the outcome of any accident or near miss. As for bracing the goal post. It can be clearly seen that the span is raised on Doughty Zenith wind up stands with mast locking pins at regular intervals (unlike a super lift). According to the Manufacturer, these stands are specifically designed for this purpose, as long as they are used with suitable spigots/clamps/plates etc. anyone who knows these stands knows that there is no means of attaching any bracing to the mast without modification (and you don't even want to think about doing that). Therefore the only way of bracing these stands would be to guy them, and again according to the manufacturer that would be in windy conditions. To attach guys to this structure you would need to attach them to the truss at the top and I don't know of anything that is specifically designed for that purpose (yeah, I could make one too, half coupler to eye bolt, round sling, etc) and to the floor which is wooden strips in the Passenger Sheds. They would need to be attached on 3 sides, preferably 4, and at suitably shallow angles to be effective. They would need to be made of steel wire rope to avoid stretching and be tensioned using a suitable device, such as a Tirfor winch, but again, I don't know of anything designed, tested or rated for this application. This is however uncommon practise as I and all the other riggers I know would be looking for a suitable alternative to front lighting if the situation demanded the stands to be guyed. Throughout this post I have assumed certain things such as the truss is assembled correctly, the spans are not excessive, the load data has been calculated in advance, no-one is under the influence of alcohol or drugs, the base of the stands is firm and level, etc, etc. All things that someone who is capable of taking on event of this size is competent to assess with help. I'm not saying that they should design and construct anything without reading the relevant documentation or consulting hire companies, professionals, etc, but the original post clearly states that professionals were in attendance. I think the post which states that "these are the folks who will be building the buildings your offspring will be flying truss in/from..." is particularly unfair. Well done to to them for having a go. When students take the initiative and put events on like this, it sows seeds and prompts them to learn about our industry, therefore causing it grow and this can only be a good thing. I know that Bristol University has a training scheme in place for students to learn about safe working practises, which is far more than other universities provide. You can clearly see that there are hard hats there, they state that they consulted professional help, they used a reputable company, the stage is fairly clean and tidy and the posters seem to know what they are talking about. I congratulate them for going about this in the right way and wish them every success in the future. We can only hope they have learnt from the posts here in this thread and elsewhere, and it is great to see that so many of those involved read and contribute to this forum. Is it the nature of those in the industry of entertainments to continuously put down those who are so clearly trying very hard to put on quality events and improve the perception the general public have of us, or should we encourage it by posting helpful and constructive comments, pointing out the flaws but suggesting ways around them. I always get the feeling that when we post here we always start by slating peoples ideas, it usually takes a helpful post to turn around the discussion towards a useful and constructive outcome. Let's help these guys in the future by imparting knowledge amassed over the years so that they can do it right, for all we know they may have searched this forum to find the best way of doing things and who knows what they may have come up with. We can see from what is shown here that they did most things right, lets be honest, on our first big gig, did we all get it right first time.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seano Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 <snip of much good stuff><applause from the gallery>Hear hear. Well said sir.</applause> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I apologise for the zarges comment it was meant in jest.And another hear hear and well said from me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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