eldar Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Hello all, I recently came across this article on music being played in a music shop ... See here and it has left me wondering about PRS licences. I am in the situation of working at an arts centre where we require all our visiting companies to licence themselves for what they want to play in shows as we do not have a PRS licence. However on a 'rumour' I was told that we could play music (cd's brought from home, I.e hmv/shop bought ect) in our foyer area as background music. The reason on this was because it wasn't being used in a show and the public/ audience hadn't specifically come to listen to the music in the foyer. But the above reference article has made me wonder on the legalities of us playing anything. What are the rules? Can anyone please advise. Also does it make a difference if the show is an educational/ student production with an invited 'family and friends' audience who don't pay for a ticket. Any thoughts anyone? eldar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
london sound Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Best thing is to speak to PRS, they are very helpful and will give the right answer instead of what people in the wider world think is the interpretation of the rules. The penalties can be expensive. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldar Posted January 5, 2006 Author Share Posted January 5, 2006 The penalties can be expensive. and thats exactly what I'm worried about! eldar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 I'll re-order the original post so my answers make more sense! What are the rules? Can anyone please advise. Also does it make a difference if the show is an educational/ student production with an invited 'family and friends' audience who don't pay for a ticket.The basic principle is that copyright law prohibits public performance (amongst other things) of any work (music, play, film, video, etc) that is in copyright, without the permission of the copyright owner. There is no legal requirement for copyright owners to have to give permission - some do choose to refuse. But, of course, they can make money by charging people for performance rights and most are keen to do this. In the case of music, normally what happens is the owners give PRS etc the right to authorise performance and get a share of the PRS revenue in return. A private performance is not covered by copyright law and hence any work can be performed in private without permission or royalties. However, exactly where the boundary between private and public lies in this context is not something I am able to comment on in detail. It's probably the case that a performance in an educational establishment solely to members of that establishment (staff/students) is private, but if you admit outsiders (including family), then it might not be. Admission charges are not normally relevant in determining whether something is public or private (eg a free concert in a park is definitely public). Also bear in mind that for playing recorded music, royalties are due to both the composer and the record company, as both have copyright in the recording. PRS handles copyright for composers, and another society called PPL handles copyright for record companies. Finally, remember that if the composer is not a member of PRS or one of their overseas partners, then the PRS licence doesn't give you permission to perform their work. I recently came across this article on music being played in a music shop ... See here and it has left me wondering about PRS licences.To suggest that a prospective customer playing even a complete song whilst trying out an instrument in a shop constitutes a public performance is stretching things somewhat. Sounds like PRS being a bit heavy-handed. I would probably tell them to get lost. If this ever went to court and PRS won the case, a quick solution would be to give the customer a pair of headphones (for an electronic instrument) or stick them in a little room on their own. There's no way that either could be called a public performance! I am in the situation of working at an arts centre where we require all our visiting companies to licence themselves for what they want to play in shows as we do not have a PRS licence. However on a 'rumour' I was told that we could play music (cd's brought from home, I.e hmv/shop bought ect) in our foyer area as background music. The reason on this was because it wasn't being used in a show and the public/ audience hadn't specifically come to listen to the music in the foyer. But the above reference article has made me wonder on the legalities of us playing anything.The established position is that background music does constitute a public performance and hence royalties are due. So you do need a licence. The music is being performed in public even if people aren't listening to it. I don't know if this point has been proven in court or not, but few people would argue otherwise. Best thing is to speak to PRS, they are very helpful and will give the right answer instead of what people in the wider world think is the interpretation of the rules.Whilst there is some truth in the above and I would certainly recommend speaking to PRS and PPL, remember that they exist to make money for their members. So their answers are likely to be the best ones from their point of view, as demonstrated by the music shop article. The only "right" "interpretation of the rules" (ie copyright law) comes from the courts and nowhere else. HTH Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robfl20 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 It use to be that if you wanted to play any live or recorded music in a public place you would have to have a music licence from PRS and separately a sound recordings licence from PPL. However now PRS & PPL have come together to form "The Power of Music" campaign, essentially designed to make it easier to obtain your licences from both in one place. the website is http://www.thepowerofmusic.co.uk/It will give you all the information on what licenses you need in order to do what you want, and of course how to get them. Hope this helps, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 The advice being given here is spot on. PRS seem to have little mini-campaigns and pick soft targets where their visit normally ends in the premises getting the licence, which does seem to be a sensible and cheap method of colelcting royalties. The comment on the fact that it doesn't matter if the people actually listen or not is quite valid. Shops, doctors/dentist surgeries, restaurants and kwik-fit tyoe places where people just sit and wait are typical places where a visit normally ends up with a licence application. My own dentist, a large multiple surgery practice now don't play the radio at all, just awful copyright free musak that vaguely sound sfamiliar, but isn't. I'm only guessing, but I wonder if the real reason is the cost of a proper licence? Eldars original post now probably means he'll contact PRS about the foyer music. The idea that the visiting companies licence their music is great, but what happens if they turn up and can't prove they have? I seem to recall that despite you requireing them to be self-licenced, the venue operator is still liable as they have collected the ticket money, sold the ticket, advertised the event etc. I suspect that you may not be able to shift the responsibility. probably real legal advice here is required - maybe it could be solved by specific wording in the contracts? What would happen when you have a sold out event, the punters are arriving and then you find out they haven't got the licence - cancel the show? Dodgy ground really. As you have thought about licencing already, quite difficult to justify this, I'd have thought? I've had experience of individual licencing of music tracks for performance and it is not fun or even easy to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich newby Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Can I just say that I emailed them about 2 months ago, and still have not had a reply from them. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundo26 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Hello all, I recently came across this article on music being played in a music shop ... See here and it has left me wondering about PRS licences...As far as I know, the situation is that if you have a premises and are playing music, then you need a PRS/PPL license. Some hairdressers were recently taken to book for playing music in their salons. If you are not the venue and are performing or playing music you will need MCPS licensing where you pay an amount per track on a sliding scale depending on the type of performance. Hope it helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSA Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 What I find hard to understand is that the Radio Stations pay their licence fee to broadcast the material, and then shops have to pay the same fee again. Seems almost like a big money-grabbing scam. There are so many permutations to the licences - e.g. it is rather sketchy for internet radio stations, listen again functions on websites, and podcasts. What do people think to having the radio on in the theatre whilst rigging? Do we need to have a licence for that?? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich newby Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Apparently yes, well music, radio might be ok. You have to pay to play music to staff in any company, so I don't see why we would be an exception. I personally think it is the most stupid thing I have herd, fine for theatres disco and clubs, etc, were the company is based around music, but it is being taken too far now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robfl20 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 What do people think to having the radio on in the theatre whilst rigging? Do we need to have a licence for that??Even though not technically classed as playing music to the public PRS rules do state that a company must have a licence to play music to employees, so I guess (even if you were a volunteer) you probably do need a licence even for this.Unless of course you are rigging in the privacy of your own home, then there may be loophole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robloxley Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 PRS handles copyright for composers, and another society called PPL handles copyright for record companies.Ish: "There are two rights in every recorded track - a copyright in the musical and lyrical composition and a separate copyright in the actual sound recording - so every time a track is played in public, there are two licence fees to be paid; one goes to PRS who pass the money on to the person or people who wrote the composition and the other goes to PPL who pass the money onto the people who performed on the track." Of course record companies do get in on the act, but this is a simplification.If you think of cover versions of songs it makes more sense re these 2 different rights.There is also a separate mechanical copyright which covers duplicating music etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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