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11 minutes ago, Simon Lewis said:

Be thankful if your college is happy to use the 'three quotes' approach... It's not unusual for FE and HE institutions to insist that larger projects go to competitive tender. You can end up not being able to closely specify the items wanted and having to buy what you don't want from the firm you'd rather not deal with... 🙂 

I completely agree but the three quotes system can be a total waste of peoples time as well. You know what you want, you know the best company to get it from, you know why they're the best company to get it from... the deal is done in your mind but you have to get 2 more quotes anyway and the waters will invariably be muddied when one of those quotes comes back either (a) cheaper by a few quid or (b) much cheaper because they offer you completely different equipment and somehow manage to ring somebody higher up your organisation, bypassing you completely, and convince them that the inferior product they're offering is actually the same thing with a different badge... causing a kerfuffle whilst you push a square wheel uphill attempting to debunk the myth.

1 hour ago, Illuminatio said:

Thank you; that's rather what I thought.  Stage Electrics and AC seemed the obvious choices and I have good contacts with both; I've always found Whitelight a bit pricey!

When it comes to Whitelight and being pricey... I just want to defend them a bit and say it depends. Some of those big companies (I mean, WL are probably supplying the vast majority of all West End and Touring theatre) are just so busy that taking on small sales jobs can be more destructive than profitable, so they have to charge a premium to make it worth the hours. Whereas a company like AC is much better setup to deal with sales jobs of all sizes.

In terms of competitive suppliers I always say Adlib... I think they're very good on price and after-sales support.

rationale: if you provide a bottle opener, people won't attempt to open bottles on parts of the case that were designed for something else.

This (random fact) is why the British Army SA80 bayonet scabbard has a bottle opener on it... apparently the high cost of damages from working parts of weapons being used as bottle openers meant that rather than try and do the impossible and ban beer... they just gave everyone a means with which to open the bottles safely...

Not a sarcy answer but have you called Avolites? They're normally really helpful when it comes to tracking down spares and if there were any left from their production line when those screens stopped being used (last console was probably the Pearl Expert) they might still have them in a box somewhere.

Otherwise a call to the companies who held a lot of Pearls in hire stock (top of my head... 4Wall UK, Coloursound, Hawthorns, GLS, Siyan, Adlib, Entec...) might yield a "spares/repair" console lying around that they'll sell you to scavenge bits out of. As I previously said - you're talking about a very old console now but it's amazing what people hold onto.

On 2/28/2022 at 4:54 PM, sameness said:

Been using a 5.11 Rush 24 for the last 5 years.

I have a few 5.11 bags and they're all very high quality in terms of fabric, zippers, QR buckles etc. Definitely higher than average.

(Incidentally, IMO they also make the best black trousers for the sort of smartish work-show blacks... when one pair has to do both)

Personally I have the 5.11 All Hazards Prime backpack for work which is kind of good in a quality way but I'm not sure I'd recommend it. I liked the idea of the changeable inserts but in reality they're a faff and the mash gets caught on the zipper and rips them out by accident. Looking at the site the Rush ones seem a little more suitable for day to day life. Although the orange interior does make it easy to find stuff in low-light, and I like the full length zipper which means you can plonk the bag on a table and open it up like a box - this makes removing your electronics at airport check-in really fast, without having to turf out your entire bag onto the table whilst the whole world watches.

Supplied a few of these and I think what you're asking for is exactly what it does: https://prolight.co.uk/product/flex31

Quote

A user friendly controller with back box, perfect for mood creation in hotels, bars and venues. Suitable for DMX control over installed fixtures such as LED flexible tape, architectural or basic stage lighting. Designed for use with RGB or RGBW fixtures, fixtures, the FLEXICON can be configured during installation via a simple dipswitch for either three or four channel DMX operation. The FLEXICON features a tri-colour LED indicator to mimic the output colour, allowing the user to see the effect directly from the wall plate. It is also suitable for installation into single gang, electrical back boxes for convenient integration.

2 hours ago, kerry davies said:

Time may be against you but when I was doing decor and inflatables in tents I had a mate who made and repaired tents run up a bunch of varying length loops of the white webbing as shown in the above photo on his sewing machines. Used with carbine clips etc. they were a fast, flexible way of attaching lightweight kit up to and especially my hammock. 

Yes, the TAIT Madonnas are a perfect size for attaching a hammock to 2" tube... I'd almost forgotten

It's been a long time for me but:

1. Select the fixtures using the blue keys on the top 2 rows.

2. Press ML Menu - it's located at the bottom of the strip of white keys next to the LCD screen.

3. Press the white button which corresponds to "Macros" on the LCD screen.

4. Press Next/Previous (the bottom two white keys) until you see Lamp On, or Lamp Off (as desired)

5. Press the button.

As Nic said, it's part of the shutter attributes in the personality so if it's easier for you to find it (or for like, non-tech users in a church etc), you can also dial each one in manually with the encoder wheel and then save is as a shutter palette and shove it on one of your grey buttons somewhere in the top two rows... so you can always select those fixtures and press the appropriate palette key to strike them.

Finally, as much as it's brilliant to see such an old console still slaving away... I'd start putting coins in a piggy bank if I was you because IME it's living on borrowed time!!!

11 hours ago, Stuart91 said:

who seem to be adding DRM to tie customers into using only their labels. 

Yeah, it's something I like about the P-Touch... they offer their own labels but don't seem to stop you from using other peoples'.

This is really valuable for electrical installers working internationally as you will sometimes be in territories where getting the real deal is more difficult than buying a copy. It's not ideal buying non-genuine tapes, but if it's all you can get your hands on, having a label printer that bars you from using one is a real irritation.

Ultimately for whatever the rights and wrongs might be, I kinda resent any manufacturer who thinks they get to tell me how I'm allowed to use my tools after I've bought them.

44 minutes ago, sunray said:

Zarges was always a staging board, often spanning across a pair of ladders

Are you sure? Zarges, AFAIK, never made staging boards.

If we're referring to the 'Hoover' way of naming things, staging boards are often referred to "Youngmans" which may be what you're thinking of... since that is indeed what Youngman actually make.

11 hours ago, david.elsbury said:

Just use a spanset and shackle?

Way too big in the application that Madonnas are used for. They're for attaching single cables or small looms to stuff like motor chain sliders or catenaries... not for strain relieving large feeder looms.

The Madonna (in strap terms) is made by TAIT Towers. It goes on a chain slider (for cable management) since the TAIT chain slider doesn't incorporate any kind of swivel mechanism, so the polyester strap permits the cable to rotate freely (whereas when people use cable ties with sliders they have a tendency to snap under the rotation of the cable). The clip on the end is for quickly attaching the sling to the chain slider. The idea being that the chain sliders live on the motor chain, and the Madonnas live on the cable loom - we tended to choke them onto the cable and then wrap them in tape so they didn't move in the box once the load was off.

I believe that the Madonna is named as such because it was first made by TT for the Madonna tour. They are genuinely pretty good, if a little fiddly.

I have one on my suitcase (I use it for keeping the zips together!) , if you send me a PM with your email address I'll email you a picture of and Jacqui at Rope and Rigging will almost certainly manufacture them for you. It's only a piece of half-inch polyester webbing sewn into a loop, with a snaphook sewn into the end - something they can easily manufacture affordably. You could obviously ask TAIT to supply them but unless you're buying the rest of the system from them as well, I suspect they'll take Jacqui's price and put a zero on the end.

If 25mm isn't too wide, Flints Flat Web Slings are quite a nice pre-made option: https://shop.flints.co.uk/Product-Details/All/FHSFWB

On 2/17/2022 at 3:09 PM, kgallen said:

The resulting stub length on the transmission line within the fixture is a couple of centimetres, not long lengths of cable. Electrically, at DMX frequencies, this is a very different situation to making a passive split then hanging tens-of-meters of cable off each leg. Electrically, a DMX network is a transmission line, which has very specific electrical characteristic and behaviour. The tolerance to stubs and impedance mismatches causing reflections is a function of frequency. At DMX frequencies, short unterminated stubs like those inside the fixture can be tolerated whereas such stubs would be completely unacceptable at RF frequencies.

Absolutely valid, was just making the point that it's not the splitting that causes the harm.

Interestingly when you look inside a lot of fixtures, the male and female DMX connectors are just soldered onto one another in parallel.

Thus in essence if you are daisy chaining these fixtures, then you are passive splitting on the rear of the fixture. One leg is going into the electronics and one leg is going out to the next fixture.

Not saying it is/isn't OK... just saying, devil's advocate, maybe more people are passive splitting than realise it 😀

What @TomHoward said. Sounds like the defacto standard installation method that you would get from virtually any electrical contractor.

Also agree that the installation will likely be more heavy duty than most AC and suspended ceilings. I am pretty confident that were you to have this install carried out by a general electrical contractor rather than a theatrical one, safety bonds wouldn't even be a thought. Nobody outside the theatre industry puts M10 or M12 stud (breaking strength usually well in excess of a ton) on a 5kg fixture and thinks damn I best put a piece of wire on that in case the ceiling falls down

24 minutes ago, Bryson said:

 I'm agreeing with you in the most part - I was unclear at the start of the conversation if the OP is planning on hanging the fixture in "Pendant" mode or directly from the yoke.

In pendant mode, I would still want a safety.  But mounted as you say, I agree not really necessary, especially if adding one is onerous.  (The one caveat is if you have a keen but inflexible inspector who insists on one..)

In pendant mode, yes agreed - as per my first post, it is about risk assessment, the safety bond has to mitigate a risk that the primary suspension cannot mitigate alone. 

So in the case of pendant fitting, the primary fitting may not be terribly strong, so the risk is that the fixture is subjected to unusual forces - ie caught on a tallescope being pushed past - mitigate it with a safety so even if the power cable breaks, the fixture does not crash to the floor posing risk of injury. 

In the case of a fixture secured to the mounting bar with a substantial mounting accessory (ie a half coupler), I cannot think of any risk where a safety bond would be able to mitigate it... Simply because the primary would cover all those bases itself. Any incident capable of breaking the primary would break the secondary, and/or the fixture itself. 

The inspector argument is always a valid one too and its really frustrating. The grid lights are seldom safetied, the air con is seldom safetied, the fire system is seldom safetied... I could go on. So yeah if you were hanging a Source 4 on a half coupler id say safety it just because it's theatrical lighting and best practice is to use a safety bond, and it'll keep the H&S man off your case. But for permanent lights up in the ceiling I really think you'll be fine with a high quality permanent installation fixing. 

1 hour ago, sunray said:

Personally I've gone through life with; 'why use 2 screws when 4 will do the job'.

 

So why not use two safeties?

1 hour ago, Bryson said:

I remember the pictures of the ceiling collapses at the Apollo/Piccadilly, and the fixtures hanging on the safeties there after the incidents.  I'll bet the ceiling collapsing wasn't on the radar of the Risk Assessor, but I bet they're glad the safeties were there.

It's a fair point but it's just also not really relevant is it? It is just obvious physics that if the primary suspension is strong enough then the secondary is unnecessary.

The grid doesn't have a safety round it... what happens if that falls down?

I'm with sunray that it's habitual more than logical. I honestly challenge anyone to show to me the mode of failure which causes a 500kg-rated half coupler, secured with M12 locking nuts, to totally break in half but where the 3mm wire rope saves the day. I don't want to turn this into a bitching match about the necessity of safety bonds full stop... but for house lights which are mounted clear of any hazards which could dislodge them... it's just not necessary. Frankly when struck by the amount of force it takes to break a half coupler, most small fixtures will be the point of failure rather than the rigging anyway.

Out of interest - what risk do you anticipate in your RA, where you've deemed secondaries to be the best way of mitigating the risk? Can it not be mitigated using a different choice of primary suspension?

Personally I would say you can rig the fixture to the bar with a half coupler (generally considered a more permanent fixing) with nylock nuts; and forego the safety bond altogether. I think you can forego the safety bond on the grounds of risk assessment - the half coupler cannot be dislodged from the bar.

Safety bonds are a theatrical thing which make sense on G-Clamp'd fixtures located near where bars will move, tallescopes will be moved around etc - where there is a risk of dislodging the fixture. But in a permanent install where there are no moving bars etc, using a more secure primary fixing with locking fasteners is as secure as any of the non-theatrical installations (HVAC, Cameras, etc) which will tend to not have safety bonds either.

7 hours ago, Robin D said:

The biggest issue is clearing UK customs. I just had to order a just over 5 Euro spare part which was despatched by tracked post the same day and left by air arriving Heathrow next day. It hit the customs hall at Langley at 10:02 on 28th March where it sat until Saturday the 5th finally delivered yesterday. Good old British red tape at its best. Thanks Brexit.  

However, I ordered a product from them last month which arrived two days later!

 

That seems to be common to customs in most countries. There's no logic in how long stuff takes to clear. 

3 hours ago, Stuart91 said:

I'm aware of some staging designs that use a separate frame round the edges, with lighter decks that drop in the top. This looks like a concept that would work for these folks, but I'm struggling to find anything. The name that I see around is Layher, but they seem to focus on far larger structures. (This is going to be something like 6m x 4m). I've attached a few images below that I found from a random Chinese seller. I'm extremely wary of buying anything like that, but it's a good illustration of the general design. 

Does anyone know of manufacturers / importers that could supply something similar within the UK?

Area Four Industries have their XStage System which does what you're asking for, basically - you can contact their UK office on +44 1945 410700

https://www.xstage-systems.com/products/xstage-systems

Prolyte also have their Easyframe system... conveniently they were acquired by Area Four, so you can contact them at the same time as the above.

https://www.prolyte.com/products/portable-stages/stagedex/easyframe

Total Fabrications (UK-made) have their Arena Deck system - you can contact their UK office on +44(0) 121 772 5234
The deck is heavier than Litedeck (but lighter than steeldeck)... but when you walk on it, it does rather feel like walking on a permanent stage.

https://www.trussing.com/products/arena-deck-staging/

Their tech support is really helpful and not just for show-stopping queries! Always found them to be fast and useful

I have to be honest I have toured large / heavy cable looms on international shows going to hot/cold/wet/etc places held together with PVC tape and they have not come apart through frequent packing into boxes and unpacking onto trusses, so I am going to say here that it is probably your brand of tape, technique, or spacing.

In the UK I would use Le Mark, 50mm width PVC: https://www.lemark.co.uk/electricians-tapes/pvc-electrical-insulation-tape/#tab-id-3

I would use 3 wraps (some say 2), a metre apart.

The other two things to note are, (1) as somebody said, cut it with scissors or a knife rather than stretch/snap, this will stop the end peeling up; and (2) make sure that when you're looming the cables, you have somebody pulling them tight or tie the end off to a solid object. You need to be able to pull them tight and not twist around each other. This one catches a lot of people out, looms done loose get messy really fast.

Finally, when you need to de-loom them, use a seatbelt cutter to reduce the scope of slashing the cables.

Suspension of loads over stage by means of synthetic of natural fibre ropes in a theatre is, indeed, legal. 

For the requirements, I would direct you to EN 17206 , as well as the more general requirements for lifting equipment as per the EU Machinery Directive.

Hope this is helpful.

https://en17206.com/

As for the fire curtain argument... conversely to Tom's points the Liverpool Playhouse had a new and fully functional fire curtain installed in 2017.

In the last 10 years I've done fire curtain refurbishments in numerous ATG receiving houses, some at great expense.

So whilst I'm not suggesting whether they're "in" or "out" as a blanket rule, there are certainly places where fire curtains are definitely still "in".