Jupton24

Thanks for that. Like what Paul says I will need to find a bigger budget to get better speakers. I won't ask for speaker recommendations as I think it may get a bit over crowded with different types. But in general is EV a good make for what they cost?

Thanks for the help everyone. I don't actually have a budget get to update the speakers. Powered speakers would work for me as they are so high up in a sports hall and it has cabling for passive layed beneath the floor and up the wall. I am going to look into the drive rack a bit more as it does come with quite cool features that is not there currently e.g fbq and eq. But reading what you all say has helped in actually identify the problem. It was originally fine and then someone whacked the amps up therefore the speakers made terrible noise. They left them for a while at it and obviously the HF broke eventually. When it broke they just wacked the amps up even further. (This is the teachers I am talking about)

Yeah I agree I think I was going a bit above what is actually needed. It was just the IT person said a UPS would be useful but now like you said it is pointless any way. Thanks for the help

Ah understand now a ups is normally a unique selling point sp vs ps!

 

My main pa in the theatre has been powered down by flicking the power switches or killing the entire rack by the Mcbs for years. Not sure what they can do to kill speakers doing this. With students and staff doing what they normally do volume is going to be the killer because the horns in smaller units are fragile. Probably more fragile than a fuse! If you’re the technician can’t you exercise some control over these people?

 

 

Yeah I am the senior technician I suppose it is just now down to the fact that I need to lock the amps away so no one can touch them and teach them the proper way of shutting it down but I don't think they will listen as we are talking 14 - 16 year olds. I guess a backup battery would be pointless as well because it get used Fridays and Tuesdays only. I suppose I can't fit it with a volume button limiter (if that makes sense)

 

Also do you know of a amp that can power the EV zx1 successfully. Ideally a one that could fit into a amp rack is apreacieted

Older EV speakers often had light bulbs inside which acted as protection, but the reason your speakers are failing is not teachers and students not knowing how to shut them down, it's squirting too much volume into them. 200W is their limit and those amps can supply more than that. However, before they fail they sound simply awful so people normally just turn them down. I assume the smaller amp powers the small speakers and the larger one does the 12" ones?

 

To be honest, at their price point repairs out of warranty are not cost effective unless there is a technician on staff who's labour is free.

 

Fuses don't really help - you need sensible people to operate them.

 

No idea what a USP is?

 

okay, that is great to know. the trouble is the amp rack is in the same room as the sound desk so, therefore, the teachers' fiddle with it obviously now I will have to invest in a door for the cabinet to prevent this happening. They did sound awful to much bass so that made the school take them down and take them to a repair shop. they did the opposite when they sounded bad they just turned them up further. yes, the lager ones are powered by the larger amp. they originally had the larger one powering the smaller ones when I first got there that is when the speakers worked perfectly.

 

unfortunately, I did not have a say in to get new speakers or to fix them. it will still be teachers and students operating with limited knowledge.

 

a USP is an Uninterrupted Power supply as they turn the amps off constantly. without shutting it down properly.

Hi,

 

Recently we had 2 of our Ev zx1 -90's horns break and had to get them set away for repair. I have been tasked with finding a solution to prevent this from happening again. I have seen elsewhere on google about fuse for speakers so if the volume or power goes over a certain limit it would trip. The trouble is that this sound system gets used by teachers and students that don't know how to correctly shut it down. there is 2 EV ZX1-90 and 2 EV ZX3's they come off a QSC 1450 and a QSC 1850HD I believe of the top of my head. Is there any way that I can make the system using fuses or shall I look into USP's

 

Cheers

James

we use beamz stuff where I work. try flicking through the menu until you find "adrs" or something similar then you should be able to choose the type of channel you require (using the plus or minus sign or the arrows depending on the model) it on then it should take you the DMX patch code. it may be hidden under a different title.

Some new LED's on the market right now have a colour that can mimic the colours of tungsten lights (I use somewhere I work at the moment but I dont know the make of them!). like you say you could use a chunky battery. have you looked into cinelex they do v mount version that might be useful for you as they just require a battery to operate them.

In the real world, £10k for a PA that will do quality sound outside up to 100m isn't going to happen!

 

If I were involved I would put the idea forward of putting some of the £10k into infrastructure for larger events such as a 63/3 outlet put in by a professional electrician depending how far away the closest large power is that may not be cheap.

 

Then look at buying a PA that can be used by the whole school and also cover the smaller events on this outdoor stage. Something like Yamaha DXR15 / Yamaha DXS18 of which is a fairly small system but will swallow the best part of £5k

 

Has anyone even mentioned Wedges and lines systems etc? If you get any sort of professional band come through they will easily want £20k's worth of lines, wedges, and IEMs. Hence my comment about spending the money on infrastructure so when your local PA come in to do a sensible sized gig you don't have to spend £2-3k on generators and heavy mains/distribution

 

 

People have mentioned D&B C7 / B2 etc Forget it! £10k won't even buy the amps new let alone boxes, cable package etc. Second hand maybe a small C7 package but if your getting funding it will have to be new.

 

£10k is HK Audio Yamaha DXR money.

 

cheers for that. I will put forward this to them. the speakers suggested by you might be what they need. though it is nice that bishop sound Orion contains Bluetooth so they can use them without a sound op. I have a clearer idea now and will put forward either the orions or the dxr15/18s. they both seem to be multi-use and that is ideal for them as they may consider just using it as a stand-alone PA system. is there any PA systems like the ones suggested that are battery powered?

I wouldnt touch the Bishopsound speakers with a very long barge pole. THe demo system they lent to Glastonbury started failing on the first day and had to be replaced by day two.

 

oh okay I might avoid those.

I think that is it a bit unfair of the staff to dump this on you. There are so many facets to consider and you are neither experienced enugh or paid to take responsability for this. I would be surprised if senior management of the institution are aware that you have been put in this position. My best recomendation would be for you to come up with a recomendation of people or companies that can give professional advice. To this end, I have sent you a PM with details of someone in your area who will be able to give an independent balanced viewpoint that is based in 20+ years in the industry.

 

I kind of have now but I will get other peoples views on it think the Orion 15s with the beta 18s from bishop sounds. I know right leaving it to me this was given to me on the second to last day of the School year so the school Is currently closed so this would be a September buy/rent/ decision by the head

At the school I work at we had some Beamz LED pars they were the worst buy in the world we barely use them we have 6 of them and 4 only function properly, 2 have the stands broken. They are very cheap but don't shine much light if you are going to place them on a rig. we only use them to uplight the curtains now and they don't do a good job at that either. They are a pain to set up as each of them require kettle leads and they can lose there DMX address quite often. I would strongly avoid. We ended going up with Prolights studiocobs for that need. there are other makes of Led pars out there but like said in the forum the plastic can melt if kept on for long enough the do have inbuilt fans but the don't often work. the only good thing that beams makes is there fog makers but that is about it!

What are the power arrangements for the stage, James?

there are no direct power to the stage. but there is near by buildings with mains plugs. so extension cables would be run. I don't like that as the cable can get very hot as it will be running of one plug

 

James, please stop. You are out of your depth. If the sound equipment is badly specified, the worst outcome is people won't hear the production. If you get the electrical side wrong, the outcome may be life changing/ending.

As indicated by many above, the whole project needs to be evaluated and specified from scratch by paid professionals with the experience, qualifications and insurance to cover their recommendations and installations.

 

Where a permanent outdoor stage structure is being installed, I would expect to find a mains distribution cabinet close-by, for productions to use.

Alternatively, if the stage is close to a building and heavy duty mains cables can be safely routed temporarily to the stage, there may be a suitably sized and IP rated IEC60309 outlet on said building.

 

It worries me you talk of cables getting "very hot" - if you are seeing this within your current activities, you must tell a member of staff immediately.

 

 

 

 

does anyone know of hire companies that rent out the bishop sound equiptment?

 

They don't exist.

Hire companies generally stock tried & tested, industry standard equipment, that is available worldwide and people/companies ask for because they know how it performs - typically L'acoustics, d&b audiotechnik, Nexo, Martin Audio, etc.

 

The closest you'll get to what you've suggested - but please don't take this as a recommendation because it certainly isn't - would be to look at the various diy speaker building websites, where you'll find lots of very keen (and knowledgeable) hobbyists, who think the answer to everything is to build massive ground stacks and measure the highest SPLs achievable. But the concept of distributed systems is alien to them.

 

 

 

Undestood I don't think the school would want DIY speakers but I can ask. I only know this as that I have heard it happening to others at different schools but I have never tried it and will never! I will ask them to see if they can route a cable to the stage for tech use only

When you have a concert on the stage, with the mixing desk you already have, and the speakers you're going to buy, whose job will it be to set the equipment up, take it down, set up the microphones and mix the levels for the band? Will someone at the school do it or will you be hiring an engineer in for the concerts?

 

Someone at school one of the student tech dept

 

forget the speakers for a minute,first off buy some material to cover all that wood,otherwise the reflections are gonna be a nightmare

 

I can't it was not my opinion I think the school would kill me if I did

 

What are the power arrangements for the stage, James?

 

there are no direct power to the stage. but there is near by buildings with mains plugs. so extension cables would be run. I don't like that as the cable can get very hot as it will be running of one plug

 

How close are the near neighbours to the proposed stage? Maintaining 100dB at 100m means a large noise footprint. Has anyone considered noise and licensing? IMO this would be primary requirement. It's also probably a very valid reason to use a contractor on the first few events to determine what the real noise nuisance to neighbours will be before buying large amounts of kit.

 

the stage is about 60m away from houses the school is quite built up with lots of buildings but this would be more daytime concerts. after talking to the head of the school saying that the noise would be to much if needed to be heard at 100m they now say 60m is fine

 

For 10k, your school or college will almost certainly have a proper process for this kind of project. Usually considered a capital item bid, and if it's approved then there will be probably three firms asked to quote. So the first step is to identify suitable and reliable suppliers WHO HAVE DONE IT BEFORE. You also need a proper specification, and after somebody recommended problematic by modern standards Bose 802s, which have been the Marmite of the audio world for a huge period of time (I'm actually a pro 802 sound person), be aware that anyone recommending a speaker only available second hand, is potty, and out of their depth in modern audio. Is the 10k for just the speakers, speakers and amps, speakers, amps and processing, speakers amps, processing and mixer, or even that lot with some monitors thrown in? Or do you look at the Bishopsound Big systems that for this kind of use could be spot on in terms of value for money - lots of big boxes, not bad performance for the type and cheap!

 

There is also a risk to the teachers, not you. If they specify kit that turns out to be over or under specified, then the powers that be will consider them to have wasted what are normally public funds, and unavailable to other staff. If you get 10k and science or sports don't, and they see your 10K sitting in a store for 90% of the time, they will kick off, and your department have a tarnished reputation and this takes years to recover. Seen it so many times. There is always a barb in the "student technician" title. YOU could become the person who wasted 10K, the teacher who signed it off blaming you. This also happens. One Blue Room member I'm aware of specified a huge clever purchase that never worked. Their teacher had no clue at all - quite normal, and took their advice, and it went t*ts up badly. The big firm who supplied exactly what was asked for got flack because the system never worked, because assumptions were made that meant some of the kit just could not talk to each other. It got quite nasty. He still occasionally gets the comment when people meet him - "OH you were that Blue Room bloke' He is now 33!

 

Ideally, you actually need a consultant who does NOT sell equipment. Real consultants don't - so they're unbiased. If you ask a firm to quote for a broad spec, you will get expensive kit that may be OTT, or disco kit that will sound awful, or the whole range between. You seem to want value for money, but will not be the person who knows what the kit is expected to do, because nobody there can write the spec it sounds. You need to find an outside person, unbiased and experienced. Maybe one of our members can advise in your area if they visit and have a chat with everyone.

 

thank you for that info I will be passing this directly on to the school and I shall see what comes back. the bishop sound big system looks good for the price. I think they would get the Orion 12s or 15s with the beta 15s or 18s I like that they have built in bluetooth so a member of the tech team does not have to be with the speakers at all time. does anyone know of hire companies that rent out the bishop sound equiptment?

 

Completely agree with Paul's advice. Spending such sums for a school might look like good fun, but it's a potential minefield.

 

Whilst not independent consultants, SFL have been mentioned in this thread. The excellently named Matt Sales is a good guy to contact and they are based quite close to you in Reading.

 

Here's a link to their query page.

 

yes agreed I will definatly get a independent consultant to come in to look at the venue. do you know of any independent consultants near Fleet?

Thank you James. The box structure reinforces what the guys have said about getting professional input. That stage will be a sonic nightmare for backline and monitor sound and might be beyond the scope of amateurs. I would guess I would have problems getting a good mix cleanly and certainly not coherently projected for 100 metres. Onstage volume levels may need to be severely restricted.

 

Perhaps you could just do a test with drums, guitar and keyboard amps in there to see how it reacts? I would be very reluctant indeed to buy anything at all before several test gigs.

 

No Problems I was in the same mind field at first when they said it was going to be a outside venue with no back but they have changed their minds and went with almost a "shed". Defiantly I will make sure that we test before buy.

Hi,

 

thanks for keeping the info coming - nice to have someone posting who actually replies after the initial enquiry.

 

You've had some good advice already so I'll try not to repeat what has been said previously in this thread but a couple of other things to consider:

 

If that £10K is to be spent in one hit, it's likely you will need to get at least three quotes for equipment from different suppliers. You need to track down a copy of your college's procurement policy, or at least some guidance on Cap Ex (Capital Expenditure).

 

As well as checking your local suppliers (check with your music/creative departments and see who they use currently) have a look at companies that have a national presence. By no means an exhaustive list but known names in the industry include Stage Electrics, Hawthorns, Autograph and SSE Audio (all of whom have install experience alongside audio hires.)

The forums own MarkPAMan works for SFL who may also be able to assist.

 

Do you need to factor in speakers for the stage itself? Musicians may not always bring their own monitors and if there is ever a plan to have some measure of performance on the stage, you'll need speakers for them in addition to the main PA.

 

Briefly mentioned elsewhere but do put some consideration into how the cables get from from the mixing desk to the amps and speakers, particularly if the desk is not by the stage and mechanical aids to transport everything from it's store to the position around the stage.

 

Lastly, I'm in agreement this is something that should go via professional for whom their day job is supplying kit for a budget. By all means, bounce ideas or ask questions of the forum. But deal with the people who are paid to do this, and who can be held accountable if something goes amiss ...

 

Good luck!

 

understood I will get in contact with some local companies, I will have to talk to the music dept on about speakers for the stage I think I could always use the amps they have already I don't know what make but they might do the job as they have a inbuilt amp into them.

 

thanks for the advice

Who designed the stage and what structural qualifications have they got?Google "stage disasters" to see what happens

Is outdoor power properly installed?

 

Hi, sorry but I don't know who made it this is kind of what it looks like but it has a back section and sides to it

a better one is this

Plus one for sleah's post. I used to use HK Lucas systems in pairs to do much what you want and don't understand why you don't want active speakers. Your backline amps and kit will be "active" anyway. Be that as it may, hire some kit on trial first before buying.

 

What intrigues me is the outdoor stage built of wood. Who built it, is it covered, do you have photos and has it been structurally tested? Don't get me wrong but outdoor stages in wood are unusual. I have built staging out of cardboard boxes indoors for a photo shoot of a truck on top and many other odd structures but never a completely wooden stage left permanently outdoors. I don't have either the design or joinery skills and I certainly couldn't sign off on the structural properties of the timber.

 

Which campus is this stage on? From maps and satellite neither have large fields and both of them are close to housing and large roads.

 

the stage is being made out of wood it is massive logs bound together and supported structurally together. it is not my idea but I was told it needed sound so here I am. I believe it is covered and it is next to a brick building. I will definatly check out the hk Lucas system it looks just right for what the school needs

As well as your speakers, if you don't already have them, don't forget to also consider mixing desk, multicore, stagebox, mics, stands, DIs, cables, mains distro, cover for mix position, cable ramps etc, etc. That could easily wipe out half of your budget. Outdoor festivals / concerts are complex affairs.

 

the school has already a mixing desk, mics, cables and etc. they are only needing amps and speakers and speaker cables

As you say, this is not your area of expertise, so I think your first port of call has to be your nearest sound hire shops, i.e. the people who supply for your local fetes & small festivals, to see what they would suggest as a hire. (I see djw1981 has just beaten me to it on this one)

 

A problem you will meet on the BR is that to some people £10k would be a big spend, while to others it would be chicken-feed. Also, while some responders will have carefully read through your posts word-by-word, others may just throw in suggestions for stuff they like, regardless of whether it might be appropriate for your particular situation.

 

Thank you very much I will take note of the local hire shops to see if I can get the school a test hire.

Couple of my observations. You say that they want lots of bass, but the examples you give are not bass heavy. By saying that you want it to be easily packed away, it would suggest that a ground stack system is going to have to be what yuo look for. £10,000 is not a lot of money for an install of this size. How often do they want to use it? would hiring when required be more cost effective? If someone has said some Bose 802's would do the job, they are not really that knowledgable. Consider the second hand market. The money will go a lot further. I might suggest looking at something like Nexo PS15 tops with LS18 subs, they are good quality boxes that throw very well. You would probably do well to have some decking to put the stacks on. Height is you friend to keep inteligibility for the distance. Don't forget to include the amps and cables in your budget too.

 

that is pretty much what they are after I will look at the second hand market. they don't know when they would use them but they said if the audio is very good for a cheap price they would be willing to use them quite a bit. they might be willing to look at hiring them I will ask them next time I see them. what amps do recomend for these speakers so I can get a price for them to look at?

what do you mean by C7 and B2.

 

I didn't know either, so I googled "c7 q7 b2 speakers" and the first result is your answer!

 

 

 

 

Ah thank you for that when I just put one in it just showed up with the Q7 car I was a bit baffled about that

Hi,

 

I am a student technician at a School. We have recently had a outside stage installed it is wood. The school has given the tech department money to spend on speakers for the stage. They want lots of base and very clear treble. They would have keyboards and microphones and guitars playing. What are the best speakers for this job? the sound would have to travel 100m without losing the quality. They would Idealy not be fixed to the stage and are easily packed down and stored away not taking up much room and not requiring each speaker to be powered by mains electricity.

 

Your help is much appreciated

 

James

 

James, not sure if this is homework, but as a student, you may get more input from the forum if you put forward your own thoughts and suggestions and asked for thoughts on that.

Meanwhile a few pointers, some of which you may have already studied...

- what is the size of the stage and the shape of the area for sound coverage?

- 120dB at 1m from source will become ~80dB 100m from source, assuming no physical obstructions

- a 10dB increase is perceived by the human ear to be a doubling or halving of volume

- a 40dB range is enormous and you will not provide audible levels at the back without deafening the front, with a ground stacked or flown source at the stage. That's why there are delay towers dotted around at festivals.

- check out the definitions of "base" and bass", they have different meanings

- what do you mean by "easily packed down and stored away not taking up much room"? This means different things to different people. 4 stacks of C7 or Q7 & a couple of B2s fall into that category in my book, but possibly not others. C7 is ideally a 2-man lift, Q7 is a one man lift and easy if you're tall.

- keys & guitars... no drums?

- what is the budget?

- The amplifiers, which would be mains powered would typically be positioned inside or under cover. Professional boxes don't normally worry if they encounter a little rain (again, think festivals)

 

Hopefully this gives you some things to think about and come back with after doing some research. Oh, one other thing, microphones don't "play"...

 

 

 

Hi, The school has a budget of £10,000. The stage is 10x10 and would need to cover 50x50m area but just about heard from 100m away. there is no physical obstructions as it is a open field pretty much. there is a couple of houses near by. by easily packed down I am meaning they can fit through doors so they can be kept inside and they can be stacked on top of another without damaging them. I have been informed by other people that I have been talking to that the BOSE 802 would do a good job at it but I don't know if the bass would be clear on them. They would have drums as well. the stage is going to be multi purpose so the audio is quite key. what do you mean by C7 and B2.

 

Hi,

 

I am a student technician at a School. We have recently had a outside stage installed it is wood. The school has given the tech department money to spend on speakers for the stage. They want lots of base and very clear treble. They would have keyboards and microphones and guitars playing. What are the best speakers for this job? the sound would have to travel 100m without losing the quality. They would Idealy not be fixed to the stage and are easily packed down and stored away not taking up much room and not requiring each speaker to be powered by mains electricity.

 

Your help is much appreciated

 

James

 

From experience if this is a real query, Soundgear Orbit 4's are the best option

These boxes will carry a clear vocal to 100mtrs with one box per side

https://rover.ebay.c...%2F153079599033

 

 

Hi,

yes it is a real query I have been told to research and find the best one that will suit them and give back to them a sheet telling which speakers to buy. but I don't know very much in this area hence why I am asking you guys for help.

 

If this is for real, then expectations are pretty low, because your neighbours will go mad and complain. If it's a paperwork project, then we also need to know the level you're working at. There's little point us getting clever about on and off axis sound, beam angles, dispersion and then practical elements, if all it is doing is making announcements. If the idea is to be louder than the musicians, and amplify them accurately and balance the sound sources properly, then your budget will need to be substantial. If the idea is a few guitar amps and keys on a basic outdoor stage, then maybe all the PA needs to do is amplify the quiet things.

 

tell us your cunning plan - what you think and then we'll find the positives - the things that will be great, but we'll also find many of the terrible and hopeless ideas. To be very honest - your 'title' worries me. Schools and colleges often bandy these titles around but very, very rarely does it indicate very much. Many teachers, low on the technical scale in vent these titles so that anytime they need sound or lights, they point at you and you sort it.

 

You will find some teachers of theatre technical or music tech are really knowledgeable but others are simply terrible and have a very poor understanding of how our world is. Hopefully, yours is OK. I hate outside jobs like this because expectations rarely get met.

 

You were thinking of quality - but outside the key physics is the inverse square law. no matter how loud you start, it dies away to a whisper at a distance. Same applies to Glastonbury as well as bog standard high school. In the expensive world, you use speaker systems that throw sound in a more controlled way. normally the sound disperses in width and height. Height is a bit pointless, nobody is upon there, so better systems funnel the wasted sound in a more useful direction - but cost lots. light breeze can throw your sound three miles away the wrong way and people on site can't hear it.

 

100W might be enough, but the next step up really is approaching 1000W to make real differences. this messes up the budget.

 

So we need to know as much detail as you can manage. If it really is a real project we can then help. If it's a hypothetical bit of work, then the teacher who set it's questions are vital, not your rewording. Copy and paste it if you like, then we'll know the spin they've given you and perhaps any red herrings thrown in to fox you. I was a sneaky bugger and always set traps for my thicker students who I knew would use Google. Ask away!

 

Hi, Thank you for your understanding. no this is a genuine query the head has come directly to me and said 'go and find some speakers for our outside stage they have to begged quality as the stage is multi purpose' that is why I have come to you for help as I don't know very much in this. People have said Bose 802 would be good for this but the bass is not clear enough said others. I ideally would be looking for a PA system but has to be able to handle keyboards and drums and guitars being plugged into it. the venue size is 50x50 is is quite small but in future they might want to move it to a bigger venue so has to have that flexibility. They would be primarily be used for a concert/ festival with local bands and school bands playing on them but be clear enough so harmonic groups could be heard.

Hi,

 

I am a student technician at a School. We have recently had a outside stage installed it is wood. The school has given the tech department money to spend on speakers for the stage. They want lots of base and very clear treble. They would have keyboards and microphones and guitars playing. What are the best speakers for this job? the sound would have to travel 100m without losing the quality. They would Idealy not be fixed to the stage and are easily packed down and stored away not taking up much room and not requiring each speaker to be powered by mains electricity.

 

Your help is much appreciated

 

James