What lighting do you recommend?

[lonfire]

hi guys,

I'm involved in a project to change a disused school building into a church..

 

I'm in the process of costing some stuff so I thought I'd ask what you guys recommend.

 

its more than likely we'll have three curved lighting bars on the roof all around 2m long with 4 or 5 wired sockets.. I've already got these.. just need re-wiring..

 

I've got a room where I want to put dimmers/power.. all the kit needs to be removable if we need to leave the venue or do a show elsewhere..

 

cost is a major issue.. we do alot of mission work abroad and youth work localy so I want to keep the budget down but still do a good job..

 

the venue will be used for church services.. youth events (like battle of the bands and other such nights).. we have PC DMX software which works ok.. thinking of getting a lan box or something that can store DMX scenes so people who want to use the venue can power up and press a button to get the lights on (I mean somebody that is trained to, not just some random person..)

 

so.. I recon 6 or 12 ways of dimming.. what racks? don't have to be amazing.. up till now I've been using soundlab cheapo ones..

 

from the IWB's.. single cables? multicore mains? to a patch pannel? or just tails to plug into dimmers.. or hardwired into dimmer channels? perhaps 4 dimming sockets on each bar and one or two permanent power sockets?

 

at the moment we have 2xCCT minuette profiles and about 8 random parcans (want to ditch the parcans and either get new ones or something else)..

 

I have four scans and 2 colour changers.. will probably aquire two movers at some point but thats stuff I own..

 

I am going to get a sparky to cost up 2 x 32amp ceeforms in the room where the dimmers are going to be.. and cost up various other wiring jobs..

 

and need to get a company to quote to hang tab tracks/bars/rigging points..

 

so.. your thoughts please people.. kit and prices if possible..

 

THANKS!

 

chris

[paulears]

I've found these people to be great for all things rigging - that isn't sort of off the peg.

Theatre and Tv services - contact Les Jarrald on 01362667222

 

Granary Buildings

Eastgate St

North Elmham,

Dereham

Norfolk

NR20 5HF

 

They are very busy - all over the country and are friendly and do a decent job. They don't just do entertainment rigging and systems, they deal in wire rope assemblies up to 75mm!! - the sort of thing you hang on an oil rig.

 

The idea for a semi-permanent system seems sensible, so the power supply in the dimmer room makes sense. I think I'd probably go for IWB's with a soca input, soca cables and spiders for the dimmers for flexibility - essentialy, you can unplug and be in the van very quickly. You could have dimmers with soca panels - I installed some paradims a while back and they supplied twin soca outlet panels. Personally, I'd probably go with strand/pulsar packs with front 15As - just makes patching simpler. Minuettes aren't the brightest things in the world - but are small. In my view, the only important thing with par cans is that the bit you twiddle is cool, and the diameter is big enough to spin the bubble. Many budget cans seem just that little too small in diameter and the lamp jams up, and goes when you apply a little pressure. Thomas have always been quite good for me.

[lonfire]

hi,

thanks for that!

 

one of the IWB's has a harting (lectrifex) connector already on it.. they all need re-wiring anyway so I guess I could put them on soca.. although the bars will be semi permenant so hardwiring them in wouldn't be too bad (and would save cost).. although it would mean if we hang other trussing for special events we could drag the soca to the truss instead of the bars.... hmmm...

 

the minuettes work for what we do.. the hall is only say 44' by 55' ish.. so not huge..

 

so I'm guessing a 8 or so par64s.. 1000w or 500w bubbles? or a mixture I guess would work..

 

rgds

chris

[paulears]

If you have the power, I wouldn't bother with 500W bubbles. Permanent is always better, until you want to move it or use it elsewhere!

[Meduza]

The 1000w gives way more light, go for it!

[Meduza]

The lanterns I would personally reccomend is a set of parcans (6-8st) with 1000w bulbs and a few (3-4) 1kw fresnels, I would also reccomend that you get a profile of some model to use as presentation spot.

 

Maybe a followspot later if you feel that it is needed.

 

For church events, school productions, youth events and such nothing more is needed most of the time.

 

About hardwireing or not, I would put 15a plugs on all lamps and mount sockets up where they are mounted and have a patch panel in a separate room with the dimmer, this way you could easily take some lanterns with you on tour ans still be flexible.

[lonfire]

thanks for the help guys,

yeah all lanterns will be on 15amp plugs.. our IWB's have 15a sockets on them.. so its just how I connect them to the dimmers which is the issue.. I like the idea of soca.. but I think they extra cost might be prohibative.. I may opt to have the dimmer rack on soca at one end and the bars hardwired.. that way I can take the dimmer racks out if we need to and hire in soca cables and bars?

 

any particular make of fresnels people reconmend.. please bear in mind that we aren't doing pro theatre shows.. just a few band gigs and normaly just lighting a room so some people can chat and play a bit of music ;-) nothing too strenuous..

 

I also don't want anything too big.. the place has to look fairly nice.. the roof isn't that tall.. its fairly high, but not as high as I'd like ;-) I'm guessing around 4m.. looking on usedlighting would the CCT minuette fresnels be any good for what we want? not sure of the output of them..

 

on the usedlighting site theres a 12 way 15 amp patch pannel.. I guess we could hard wire (or soca) into the IWBs and hardware this patch pannel on the other end to patch into the dimmers.. that way the dimmers are free to be used elsewhere.. and we can upplug the bars and plugin fan outs or whatever when we use trussing rigs ..etc.

 

just trying to formulate some sort of plan so that when I meet with lighting companies/sparkys I have an idea of what I want..

 

thanks guys

rgds

chris

[jfitzpat]

the venue will be used for church services.. youth events (like battle of the bands and other such nights).. we have PC DMX software which works ok.. thinking of getting a lan box or something that can store DMX scenes so people who want to use the venue can power up and press a button to get the lights on (I mean somebody that is trained to, not just some random person..)

 

FWIW, we see this approach used with our stuff at churches and multi-purpose venues a lot. Basically, turn on the rack, wait a moment while the system strikes and resets all the movers, then call up either complete looks, or mix and match position, color, and effect looks on a small DMX or MIDI board backstage. Then use a a fader combo (or unused dial) to shut the lamps off. Wait for cool down, and then kill the rack.

 

It lets you 'train' users on a dirt simple 8 channel (or whatever) board and still get decent functionality out of all the available fixtures. For a special show, you still have the system there to reprogram.

 

I think it is a great way to go. Even though I consider our stuff easy to use, the volume and turnover of people in these sorts of venues is huge. A few simple steps, which can be put on a card next to the breakers/small board, and which the users can pass on to each other word of mouth, is a lot more practical.

 

Good Luck,

-jjf

[mac.calder]

any particular make of fresnels people reconmend.. please bear in mind that we aren't doing pro theatre shows.. just a few band gigs and normaly just lighting a room so some people can chat and play a bit of music ;-) nothing too strenuous..

 

LDR is a great (cheap) brand. Their optics are not as good as the expensive companies, but they are cheap and they work like troupers.

 

Another thing to look at is Kupo Multipars. They are made in china (dont let that put you off), and are basically par64's with lenses to give you narrow, mid and wide beam without a bubble change. The lanterns have a build quality that is far superior to most par's (they certainly weigh more than a par can) and are, as I have said on many occasion, built like a brick sh*t house, excuse the French.

[Alec]

Another thing to look at is Kupo Multipars. They are made in china (dont let that put you off), and are basically par64's with lenses to give you narrow, mid and wide beam without a bubble change. The lanterns have a build quality that is far superior to most par's (they certainly weigh more than a par can) and are, as I have said on many occasion, built like a brick sh*t house, excuse the French.

 

I'd second this, but with the Eurolite version from Thomann. Their form factor is quite a bit more discrete than longnose Par 64s, with stacks more flexibility. And a bit of (very simple) jiggery pokery lets you get a 1kw equivalent output from a 575W HPL bulb.

[endorphin]

any particular make of fresnels people reconmend.. please bear in mind that we aren't doing pro theatre shows..

 

Fro my Church events rig I use 4 multimpars (from thomann) 2 p64 long can with 1000w bubbles and 6 p56 short cans with 300w bubbles. (though I am looking to replace the 56's with some more multipars as I find them so much more versatile).

 

I either use 5 strand minim f or 6 selcom aclaim fresnels depending on which Church im in though I always try to use the aclaims as I find them a very good lantern to use with good build and light output all the fresnels are 500w and I find that 500w is plenty in venues up to 250 seats. I also use two p23 and two 1kw profiles (teatro !!!!) though I am looking to add a couple more.

 

Bearing in mind that this is not an install rig but on powerdrive stands and normally in 13amp land I use 4 multidims and one betapack for dimming and either cut down on dimming channels or carefully patch when needed!

 

I also use 4 colour changers on the multipars and birdie uplights with a coulpe of isobrytares (ikea gobo projector) to add interest.

 

 

That 12 way pach pannel is a good idea and would save on having to use soca on the dimmers (though as you stated you can always hire in if needs be). the minm frenels are usualy priced similar to the cct's and the selcoms are normaly about 20 quid more (though having just checked used lighting he has none in at the moment).

 

The lanbox also sounds a good idea and something that I am going to look into but cannot coment further at the moment.

 

Hope that this has given you some more ideas. its what works for me most sundays (I realy wish I could install into the 3 churches becase it would save me hours of time!) and sounds like a similar setup lantern wise to what you are after.

 

Edd

[lonfire]

hi guys,

thanks for the input..

 

its really helpful!

 

I recon an approx guesstimate on pricing:

 

New lanterns: £1000

Dimmer racks (2x6 way DMX): £700

Rack unit/hardware for racks (2x32amp ceeform inlets): £300

Secondhand Patch panel £117

DMX cables: £150

 

Mounting 3xIWBs £?? any thoughts? just a wooden ceiling with normal joists

Cabling from IWBs to dimmer room.. say 3x30m runs of 6way power cable £??

 

I've also got to get some tab tracks.. around £600 quids worth min

Fly a projector £??

Run video/data cables for projector £150

 

Rigging points for trussing? (this is a difficult one to cost as I don't really know what I want yet!)

 

we've also got a big motorised projector screen to mount.

 

and got to move two wall mounted peavey impulse 200s from being wall mounted to be mounted directly to the roof.. somehow.. as we are changing the way the hall is setup also..

 

alot of the cable running I can do myself to save money.. the termination of the power cables I could probably do myself and get the sparky to check or I'll just get him todo it.. data/video/audio/DMX cables I'll run myself..

 

also want to fix the snake in also.. get a new one and mount the stage box on the wall.. possibly have two stage boxes.. one 8channel and one 16 channel in different places.. then a wall mount edac or such like to plug the main PA rack (big mobile platform with PA kit installed on) into.. any thoughts on that.. should really start a sound and video topic for that..

 

thanks guys!

 

rgds

chris

[lonfire]

hi guys,

just doing some more work on this..

 

I'm going to use socapex cables with spiders..

 

probably going to get hardwired dimmers and put a 2u rack panel in the rack with the 15amp sockets on the front..

 

but.. should I put both dimmers in one rack? or separate them out?

 

put the 32amp inlet on the back of the rack for each dimmer and 6x15amp sockets on the front..

 

but I also want some perm on sockets for movers..etc.. so do I put another 6x15amp sockets on each rack that are perm on (if using two racks).. 2x6u racks

 

or do I have one bigger rack with two dimmers with two 6x15amp socket panels and one 6x15amp socket panel perm on? so 18x15amp sockets in total.. 1x10u rack

 

trying to keep the cost down but not having loads of fancy stuff in the rack.. but I'm guessing I'll need trips on the 15amp outlets.. I guess theres a panel I can buy that houses such trips..

 

thanks

chris

 

p.s. if I do make it myself I will have the whole unit checked.. and if I don't I just wanna spec exactly what I want!

 

p.p.s I'm going to control the lights and stuff using inovatives show control x1 thingy.. but I also want a simple 12 channel DMX desk.. nothing fancy just so people can use the generics easily without my laptop.. also to plug into the x1 to control the software.. so really simple.. under £200.. not behringer or dj mingle or any such rubbish.. second hand is fine also..

[mn8146]

any thoughts?

 

Hi Ionfire

 

why not use soca to soca to connect the cables to the IWBs (as these will presumably be on the ceiling), Then use a plug spider on the other end of the soca (at the dimmers). Then you can just have some switchable 15A sockets next to the dimmers and you can patch each IWB channel (via the soca) to either a dimmer output or a switchable 15A (for movers etc.) using the plug spiders...

 

we do that effectively at uni - seems to work for us, and it means if you want to take the IWB power elsewhere for a special gig you can just unply the bar and put a soca extension on, followed by a socket spider.... gives you the ability to move your power (both dim and switch) about at will... ulitmate versatility!

 

hope thats all clear

 

Mike

[lonfire]

hi,

yeah thats what I'm going todo..

 

IWB (soca) -> soca cable -> spider (15amp) -> dimmers -> 32amp ceeform

 

any thoughts on whether I should put both dimmers in one rack? or two racks?

 

one rack would be easier I think, also its not going to be moved around much.. I'm hoping to have two 32amp ceeforms to run the dimmers off.. should I have two 32amp panel mounts? or two 32amp trailing plugs?

 

15amp sockets on the front or back of the rack? if I have hardwired dimmer packs..

 

and the hardwired sockets... say I have 6.. have three off one 32amp and three off the other? the rack panels I'm looking at have 6 sockets in a 2u panel.. or should I have two panels with 6 sockets on each 32amp?

 

thanks

 

chris