Strand 500 - 'the discussion'

[Ben P]

You cant - but expect it to be on the new range of desks that will be launched in a year or so

[paulears]

The thing is that many people can't wait a year or so for features that should have already been implemented - after all usb isn't exactly new. I'm asking myself why a theatre up north should be wanting to get shot of a 520 which is still under guarantee? Sadly, Strands new desk rumour has been around for far too long - I seem to remember a new desk to replace the 500 series being talked about 2 years ago, add another year and it is getting silly. Nobody at Strand is even willing to talk about it. Most other brands bring out mockups, and talk about things not even on the drawing board. Strand seem to think that the UK isn't important anymore. The monopoly they once had is vanishing very, very quickly.

[bright spark]

I agree with you Paul...

 

The re-invention of the HogIII is/was disasterous, and I have found very few people using them.... most people are still using HogIIs.

 

Computlite seem to be more acclaimed to TV.

 

Congo is shiocking and has only really been used on one event (no doubt because ETC gave them free desks).

 

AVO seem to be doing well.......but in theatre???

 

MA Lighting seem to be current favourites for theatre. I used to love the old Stand 500 series, but its showing its age, and the patch for MLs (especially with a lot of different fixture types) is horrible.

 

MA with the network systems and video seems to be way forward with AVO as a close second. A good friend of ours swears by the GMAs and fact that the network is 10 times faster than Shownet etc is fantastic.

 

The desks are built like tanks, and rarely crash and the MA Video is more powerful then Catalyst and Maxmedia, and is approximatly 16K cheaper!!!

 

I would really like to explore more with AVO stuff, but the lack of networking use is a shame.

[gareth]

Congo is shiocking and has only really been used on one event (no doubt because ETC gave them free desks).

What?! I'd say Congo is far from 'shocking'. I have yet to spend any significant amount of time on the console, but from what I've seen in a couple of tradeshow demo situations, it's a cracking console.

 

MA Lighting seem to be current favourites for theatre.

I'd be interested in reading your justification for that statement. I'm only aware of two theatre venues in the UK with GrandMA consoles installed - both of them in Southend and operated by the same organisation. Given the proliferation of 500-series desks in UK venues, I'd hardly say that this makes GrandMA a 'favourite'.

[richard_cooper]

Not accurate at all. :huh: The Strand 300/500 series runs on DOS, for sure.

 

If you really care, I'll check mine tomorrow morning and tell you which version. 6.2 rings a bell, but I will check.

 

Quite correct sir! I've got the DOS 6.2(2?) Installation pack still shrink rapped that came with my 520i.

 

 

Congo is shiocking and has only really been used on one event (no doubt because ETC gave them free desks).

What?! I'd say Congo is far from 'shocking'. I have yet to spend any significant amount of time on the console, but from what I've seen in a couple of tradeshow demo situations, it's a cracking console.

 

MA Lighting seem to be current favourites for theatre.

I'd be interested in reading your justification for that statement. I'm only aware of two theatre venues in the UK with GrandMA consoles installed - both of them in Southend and operated by the same organisation. Given the proliferation of 500-series desks in UK venues, I'd hardly say that this makes GrandMA a 'favourite'.

There's a venue near me in the midlands with one, but I'm not sure I'd call it a theatre. More, err, "light entertainment"?

[Stu]

MA Lighting seem to be current favourites for theatre.

Given the proliferation of 500-series desks in UK venues, I'd hardly say that this makes GrandMA a 'favourite'.

 

As Gareth says, 500 series desks are everywhere. At 85% penetration into the UK market I wouldn't think any other desk could be considered a favourite! A couple of desks on the West End doesn't make a industry standard IMHO...

 

There is a reason there are so many out there IMO - it's because they are the best for theatres! ;) As I say, just my 2p.

 

Stu

[Firewood1]

As Gareth says, 500 series desks are everywhere. At 85% penetration into the UK market I wouldn't think any other desk could be considered a favourite! A couple of desks on the West End doesn't make a industry standard IMHO...

 

There is a reason there are so many out there IMO - it's because they are the best for theatres! :D As I say, just my 2p.

 

Stu

 

This will no doubt be quite a contoversial comment, but here goes anyway. Why do people insist on saying that the 500 series is best for theatres??? Compared with other high spec desks they are terrible things. Every theatre you go to has one, but one things for certain, not every theatre has staff who can use them. They overcomplicate functions that are just a breeze on better consoles. It seems that so many have ended up in theatres as they have replaced old Strand desks such as the Gemini, which in their day were market leaders. One day theatre will wake up and realise there are better desks out there for the same money.

 

No doubt they'll be a fair few people disagree with me.....right?

 

 

Edit : quote fixed.

[gareth]

The world would be a dull place if everyone agreed with each other!

 

I think the point in this argument is that there's a difference between best and most popular. While the 500-series might not necessarily be the best tool for the job 100% of the time (I can think of a few occasions when I've been sat at a 520 wishing it was a Hog2!), there's no doubt that the penetration into the UK theatre market that Strand have achieved with that particular product makes it a leader in its field by virtue of numbers alone. Whether or not that's a good thing is another matter. But the fact is that the vast majority of venues on the touring circuit in this country have a Strand GeniusPro desk (either 500- or 300-series) so you can be fairly certain that, as a proddy LX or re-lighter, carrying a GeniusPro show disk around with you will get you up and running pretty much most of the time. Just ask our Stu what a pain in the ring it is having a non-Strand desk in a no.1/no.2 touring house!

 

In terms of features and functionality, I'd be among the first to admit that Strand desks have their faults. But when it comes down to it, Strand have been doing what they do longer than any other console manufacturer, and by and large they do it pretty well. Operator familiarity surely plays a part, as well - if you can operate a desk running GeniusPro software, you can walk into a majority of theatres in this country, sit at the console and start working, without having to spend a while with one of the house techs going through a "how do I record a cue? what does this button do?" session before you can get started.

 

If only Strand would realise that they're being left behind in a big way, and are in ever-increasing danger of losing the rock-solid market-leading position that they currently have ...

[Firewood1]

I agree with everything you say. New desks beat the Strands hands down but nobody can think past buying a Strand because of the issue of so many venues already having them. Hopefully people will start taking the plunge and we'll start seeing some quality desks emerging into theatres. Hog 2's and 3's are beyond many theatres budgets but there are desks out there using the Hog2 operating system that cost half the price of a 520i. One day....

 

Spare tag removed

[paulears]

So far, I haven't found a conventional 'cued' show that isn't perfect made for the Strand method of operation. I guess the syntax gradually built up over the years as their desk developed. I fell over an old M24 the other day that has exactly the same way of entering levels and channels as a brand new one.

 

The facts are really that the real problem is what Gareth mentioned - time. A ton of cues accross many dimmers is an awful lot of button pushes, if you are trying to get a show into a non-strand desk. What I have noticed of late is that people who get really skilled on their own desk, then insist it is the best. They may be amazingly quick in programming and making the thing do clever things. It may be cheap, it could be easy to programme. Great! This doesn't mean it is best, it is just what you like - which is fine. Perhaps what we should do is ask which desk is most suitable, not the best?

 

A friend of mine (on the blue room) moved into a theatre with a 520. He hates it. They didn't have one on the cruise ship he had to programme panic shows into. So - now he wants to get rid of it because it is horrible. It isn't, but it does fall down by needing a re-learn. During the re-learn, many features taken as standard on a rock and roll busking desk are found to be missing. Damn! It then gets worse because you know what the old one could do, and it appears your tool is not up to spec. Strand users are all aware how awkward their moving light implementation is, and sort of put up with it. In Strands defence, they are pretty well stuck with their operational syntax - so making it moving light friendly involves rewriting software in a totally different style - and then it wouldn't be Strand anymore.

 

Where Strand have perhaps fell down is their blinkered approach to the competition. They have done the 'Hoover' thing. For years every vacuum cleaner was a Hoover, then other manufacturers came along, and everybody called them Hoover too. Hoovering even made the dictionary. Then the others became better, had new features and worked better, Hoover did a Strand and then Dyson came along. Wiped up - even though (in my experience) they are over priced, over specified and over complicated and have a short lifespan.

 

Strand need to LISTEN to their user base, or it will go away and not come back. The UK and europe is their traditional market, and they now run everything by remote control from the states. The web site is dreadful - they have anglo/us terms all mixed up and the language differences in terms of equipment make the whole thing unfriendly.

 

People are getting fed up. As one recent thread said, as soon as a 'modern' desk comes along that can read strand files, people will shift. I can't believe how expensive 500 mseries desks still are - old products normally get cheaper - there is no way the components justify the cost, especially as tooling costs were recovered years ago. I tend to think Strand have this all planned. It wouldn't surpise me at all if the rumoured new desk doesn't actually exist - and the plan is to dump control and go with dimmer technology and keeping the rumour mill running just means another couple of years of lucrative 500 sales before it gets the RIP treatment.

 

/soapbox mode off (sorry)

[andy_s]

Bright Spark makes some pretty sweeping statements about lighting controls. Would he care to back 'em up?

[gareth]

Bright Spark makes some pretty sweeping statements about lighting controls. Would he care to back 'em up?

I asked him to justify his statement about MA being the "best for theatre" but he doesn't seem to want (or be able) to do so. He's posted to the forum several times since then, but seems to be ignoring this topic ...

[bright spark]

Bright Spark makes some pretty sweeping statements about lighting controls. Would he care to back 'em up?

I asked him to justify his statement about MA being the "best for theatre" but he doesn't seem to want (or be able) to do so. He's posted to the forum several times since then, but seems to be ignoring this topic ...

 

What I should of said was that the GrandMA for new installs is becoming very popular.

 

 

The syntax and network abilities allow fast and precise operation, whilst keeping it a down to earth desk at a realistic price. The network is 10 times faster then Strand, FPS etc. And I understand that the FPS guys were fired recently anyway??? The GrandMA also allows for the desk to be used in various different setups, it also allows for theatre stacking, submasters etc etc

 

Programming with three touch screens becomes very very quick and MA video can be ordered for another £2500 - approx £15500 cheaper then the Maxmedia or Catalyst!!! The GrandMA develops every day, and the manufacturers are not people who realise they have made a good desk, and leave it at that.

 

Gareth, how long would you say the Congo has been out for??? (I do know the answer to this)

[gareth]

What I should of said was that the GrandMA for new installs is becoming very popular.

Saying that is all well and good, but give me the names of, say, five theatre venues in the UK (not counting the Cliffs and the Palace in Southend, which are the two I know about) which have installed GrandMA consoles in the last couple of years. If they're 'very popular' for new installs, you should be able to list at least that many, surely ...

 

There's no denying that the GrandMA is a great console, but I think you're hugely over-estimating its penetration into the UK theatre market. Your profile says you're in Newcastle, so let's take that city as an example. Consider four venues which have either recently opened, or will be opening soon - the Sage in Gateshead, the Performance Academy at Newcastle College, Dance City, and the new Northern Stage venue. Have any of them chosen GrandMA consoles? No. They are (or will be) Strand venues. (Well, the Sage has a couple of Pearls, too ....)

 

Gareth, how long would you say the Congo has been out for??? (I do know the answer to this)

Couldn't really give you a precise answer to that, as I haven't been paying that much attention to it so far (although I really must get around to having a proper demo on it sometime soon!). But I guess you could say that its high-profile outing on Eurovision earlier this year marked the point at which it landed in the 'real world'. Go on, then, tell me the correct answer ...

[Bryson]

Actually there were rumblings of a possible Congo at Northern Stage.... But anyway, the point stands.

 

I haven't heard anything about people at FPS being fired. Could you supply your sources?