digital snake for house of worship help

[chrisani]

Hi there!

We are thinking of using a digital snake instead of the normal multicore cable for our church system? We have a 48 ch, analog console.

 

The available system that I know of is from Aviom and Netcira.

 

Questions: Granting that we have decided on a digital system

 

- What are the things to consider in setting up a digital snake system except for the number of inputs and outputs we need? Do we still need preamps aside the ones in the mixing board input?

- Latency problems?

- Sound quality?

- Between Aviom and Netcira, which one should we consider unless there are others out there that we should check out?

 

Thanks so much! Digital Newbie here. Sorry.

 

Chris

[Simon Lewis]

Hi, Chrisani,

 

Having followed your previous posts, I guess this is to go in your 3500 seater facility?

 

At the risk of stating the obvious, I would choose the mixing desk first. If you are going to buy something in the PM1D, D5 or Venue end of the spectrum, you will be buying into their complete package, including a digital snake.

 

Otherwise, considering the cost of the system, I would audition it. Latency may be an issue, and Ethersound appear to have the lead here, but I understand their system is more suited for point to point use. The Cobranet based systems appear to be capable of more complex audio distribution.

 

You must let us know which church you go to... It sounds like it's getting an excellent sound system ;-)

 

Did you get in touch with any consultants with regards to your loudspeaker type and placement? The latest issue of Sound & Video Contractor runs a very good article on the Mariners Church, and on the approaches they have taken to provide workable sound, lighting and video in their worship space. (See here) They used Acoustic Dimensions as their consultants, and from what I have read of them, and the brief chat I have had with one of their consultants, they are well placed to help you.

 

Regards,

 

Simon

[Pete McCrea]

We demo'd an Aviom system to my church, as well as looking into adding one into our hire stock.

 

I had reservations over the system due to the fact it could only be used for audio as digital over CAT5e, whereas other systems seemed to be able to send via TCP/IP and thus had a larger functionality. However it appears that these TCP/IP systems have quite a large latency, where as the aviom system has virtually no latency. Which is good.

 

I also believe they have interface boards for all the Yamaha Digital range, and the Digi Co boards, so should you ever move up to a full digital board, then it's a case of putting the card in the back of the board.

 

Compared to a traditional analgoue multicore, we found that the Aviom opened up the sound a really did give an improvement in the audio quality. There are pre-amps in the Aviom stuff, so the output is actually at line level, but there is control at both ends to tame unruly signals. Unfortunately +48v has to be done from the stage box, as there is no way of doing the +48 over the digital realm.

 

Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to play with the NetCira stuff.

[mackerr]

There are pre-amps in the Aviom stuff, so the output is actually at line level, but there is control at both ends to tame unruly signals. Unfortunately +48v has to be done from the stage box, as there is no way of doing the +48 over the digital realm.

 

Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to play with the NetCira stuff.

There are preamps in every digital transmission sytem. The AD converters need a line level signal. As for there being "no way to of doing +48V over the digital realm", Yamaha, Digico, Innovason, Optocore, Whirlwind, Roland, and probably some others I've missed all seem able to do it. Aviom is 1 choice, there are many others, and more coming every day.

 

Mac

[si pie]

HI

 

I met a aviom rep the other day and just to fill in the b;anks from little DJ....

 

The latency on Aviom at the moment is 0.8ms.

 

The preamps in the stagebox are developed by focusrite so are of top quality and you can have 64 channels of audio at 96Khz down 1 piece of cat5. This is much better than any other unit.

 

They have plug in cards for Yamaha and Digico for outputs only. They haven't developed one for the inputs yet as Yamaha would have to redevelope they way their pre amps work etc for it to work. So for the time being you need to D/A it then plug it into the desk and then A/D if you have a digital desk.

 

HTH

 

Simon

[mackerr]

I met a aviom rep the other day and just to fill in the b;anks from little DJ....

 

The latency on Aviom at the moment is 0.8ms.

I'd love to measure that latency. I'm sure that the sales rep for Aviom wouldn't tell the story to the benefit of the product he is selling, but it seems unlikely that .8ms could include the AD/DA conversion since that should be close to 1.5ms just for the conversions at 96KHz sample rate, double that time at 48KHz. Some digital transmission systems don't count the conversion latency, but if that is true, .8ms seems very long. Competing systems are on the order of .04ms.

The preamps in the stagebox are developed by focusrite so are of top quality and you can have 64 channels of audio at 96Khz down 1 piece of cat5. This is much better than any other unit.

focusrite also developed the Octopre. Nuff said. Running down to the stage to adjust the mic pre gain during a show might get a little tedious.

They have plug in cards for Yamaha and Digico for outputs only. They haven't developed one for the inputs yet as Yamaha would have to redevelope they way their pre amps work etc for it to work. So for the time being you need to D/A it then plug it into the desk and then A/D if you have a digital desk

Why would Yamaha have to change anything? Ethersound can go right in, Cobranet can go right in, Optocore can go right in, why not Aviom? Aviom needs to find a way for their product to be able to attach to multiple card sot inputs like every one else. Each Yamaha MY slot can be 16 in and 16 out at 48K, or 8x8 at 96K. There are a lot of choices in digital transmission systems and I haven't seen a compelling reason to chose one without remote control preamps.

 

Mac

[Mark Payne]

Yo mackerr!

 

Aviom will bring this kind of product to market, I am told.

 

My view is the existing 64 channel Anet core is a development of the 16 channel monitor system. Take the existing digital infrastructure, multiply it by 4 using all 4 twisted pairs in CAT5 rather than just the one.... bang on some mic pres and off you go. Its a core system.

 

Not looked at Optocore... you wanna tell me what the US list price is for a chunk of 16 channels ...or 32 if you like and I will reply with the UK Aviom price for comparison. Seriously ... I am learning and I wanna know.

 

I am tring to put this into the context of the user/customer that will spend £12-15K + VAT on a Yamaha M7CL not £40K on a PM5D-RH/ Digico D1 or 100K on a PM1D/D5.

 

What do ya think?

Will our next core be digi? That is the question.

 

Mark

 

[ Aviom needs to find a way for their product to be able to attach to multiple card sot inputs like every one else. Each Yamaha MY slot can be 16 in and 16 out at 48K, or 8x8 at 96K. There are a lot of choices in digital transmission systems and I haven't seen a compelling reason to chose one without remote control preamps.

 

Mac

[mackerr]

Not looked at Optocore... you wanna tell me what the US list price is for a chunk of 16 channels ...or 32 if you like and I will reply with the UK Aviom price for comparison. Seriously ... I am learning and I wanna know.

 

I am tring to put this into the context of the user/customer that will spend £12-15K + VAT on a Yamaha M7CL not £40K on a PM5D-RH/ Digico D1 or 100K on a PM1D/D5.

 

What do ya think?

Will our next core be digi? That is the question.

 

Mark

Mark, I don't think that Optocore is going to appeal to an M7 buyer. It is too high a price to pay for that type of system. If you are going to use the Yamaha AD8HR preamps, you are looking at 4 of those at $2200 each plus 2 Optocore DD32's at around $5k each, at least 1 16 ouptput Optocore X15 at $5k, plus fiber. It is a very robust system, and can be expanded to 256 channels on a fiber pair, and can run a redundent loop topology, and includes routing, video, and both RS232 and RS485 data channels. All of this is great, but not applicable to a $25k US console. Roland's RSS division has a 40 channel (32x8) system for $7k that runs on CAT5. It has remote control preamps, and an 80 channel (56x24 maybe) system over fiber could probably be put together for under $20k. I have used the Whirlwind E-Snake over fiber directly into Cobranet cards on Yamaha console. They now have a way to control their preamps from the Yamaha surface via USB and an attached computer. To use fiber with it you need a GB Ethernet switch at each end. It can run on CAT5 if you don't need the distance of fiber. I am not a fan of RJ45 connectors as my only lifeline on a digital multi, but that seems to be the way the industry is headed.

 

Mac

[Mark Payne]

Top info Mac, thanks for that.

 

A 32 way Aviom system lists at £4980 + VAT in the UK. All in. A to D down the wire and then D to A again. I guess we should acount for the 32 way loom you will need at the console end to patch it into the board. Additional blocks of 16 channels get added at £2490 a time.

 

I guess we really need to see Yamaha MY input cards for Aviom. There is little point going DtoA at the console.

 

Cheers

 

Mark

 

 

Not looked at Optocore... you wanna tell me what the US list price is for a chunk of 16 channels ...or 32 if you like and I will reply with the UK Aviom price for comparison. Seriously ... I am learning and I wanna know.

 

I am tring to put this into the context of the user/customer that will spend £12-15K + VAT on a Yamaha M7CL not £40K on a PM5D-RH/ Digico D1 or 100K on a PM1D/D5.

 

What do ya think?

Will our next core be digi? That is the question.

 

Mark

Mark, I don't think that Optocore is going to appeal to an M7 buyer. It is too high a price to pay for that type of system. If you are going to use the Yamaha AD8HR preamps, you are looking at 4 of those at $2200 each plus 2 Optocore DD32's at around $5k each, at least 1 16 ouptput Optocore X15 at $5k, plus fiber. It is a very robust system, and can be expanded to 256 channels on a fiber pair, and can run a redundent loop topology, and includes routing, video, and both RS232 and RS485 data channels. All of this is great, but not applicable to a $25k US console. Roland's RSS division has a 40 channel (32x8) system for $7k that runs on CAT5. It has remote control preamps, and an 80 channel (56x24 maybe) system over fiber could probably be put together for under $20k. I have used the Whirlwind E-Snake over fiber directly into Cobranet cards on Yamaha console. They now have a way to control their preamps from the Yamaha surface via USB and an attached computer. To use fiber with it you need a GB Ethernet switch at each end. It can run on CAT5 if you don't need the distance of fiber. I am not a fan of RJ45 connectors as my only lifeline on a digital multi, but that seems to be the way the industry is headed.

 

Mac

[BlueShift]

I cant wait for the mainstream introduction of systems based around aviom and the like - the aviom monitor system is great - something we will look into for our church for sure.

 

I dont think I could ever really trust optocore - having been working with fibre a great deal recently (53 20-50m duplex multimode workstation feeds at the new MTV on-air centre) I just dont think it could ever withstand the rigours of touring. I mean granted, the theoretical bandwidth increase over copper coax or twisted pair cable is huge (although not fully realised yet) but copper cable is, and will always be, far more robust. Even proper kevlar reinforced fiber cables would only take the wheel of a 50-100kg flightcase rolling over it awkwardly to break it - and then all your signal is gone. In fact at MTV, the flooring guys broke 9 runs inadvertantly when re-fixing the false floor! you cant just replace a section of cable (well, not without a video microscope and a fusion splicer!) like you can with copper coax/twisted pair cable. The limitations of bend radius and overall flexibilty provide not only a hinderance in how the cable can be layed, but also present again more opportunities for the internal glass fibre to be broken leading to a huged loss of signal. It is also much more expensive than cat5 or similar. And to be honest, good reinforced fibre is fairly heavy per m, so several runs of cat5 would still be lighter and much simpler to transport. So in short, I think "copper based" digital multicores will take off quick and prove to be much more robust and tour-worthy than any optical system - at least until the technology improves

 

So thats my £0.0235 (VAT included)

[mackerr]

A 32 way Aviom system lists at £4980 + VAT in the UK. All in. A to D down the wire and then D to A again. I guess we should acount for the 32 way loom you will need at the console end to patch it into the board. Additional blocks of 16 channels get added at £2490 a time.

 

I guess we really need to see Yamaha MY input cards for Aviom. There is little point going DtoA at the console.

 

Cheers

 

Mark

Does that system have remote control for the preamps? I have only seen the Aviom that has preamp level control on the stage box. I think control from FOH is critical. Even better if you can control the preamp from the console surface. AFAIK only Optocore, Yamaha and Whirlwind have implemented control from the Yamaha surface just like the internal preamps. Roland is working on it. Optocore and Yamaha have 1dB resolution on the preamp gain. Whirlwind has 1dB, but using 2 stages of control, one with 10dB and wide range, one with 1dB and a 10dB range. The 2 operate together from 1 control.

 

 

 

Mac

[Mark Payne]

Hi Mac,

 

No it does not..... ;-( Which is one reason why it is cost effective. AVIOM II (for want of a better name) will have this I am told but it will be a more expensive platform. I am not shure that the remote gain control will be integrated into the Yammy........

 

It has been hinted to me that there will be a single "knob" and a channel select that will be a standalone to the console. Kind of cool as it will be console brand independant but not truely integrated.

 

Intresting times...

 

Mark

 

A 32 way Aviom system lists at £4980 + VAT in the UK. All in. A to D down the wire and then D to A again. I guess we should acount for the 32 way loom you will need at the console end to patch it into the board. Additional blocks of 16 channels get added at £2490 a time.

 

I guess we really need to see Yamaha MY input cards for Aviom. There is little point going DtoA at the console.

 

Cheers

 

Mark

Does that system have remote control for the preamps? I have only seen the Aviom that has preamp level control on the stage box. I think control from FOH is critical. Even better if you can control the preamp from the console surface. AFAIK only Optocore, Yamaha and Whirlwind have implemented control from the Yamaha surface just like the internal preamps. Roland is working on it. Optocore and Yamaha have 1dB resolution on the preamp gain. Whirlwind has 1dB, but using 2 stages of control, one with 10dB and wide range, one with 1dB and a 10dB range. The 2 operate together from 1 control.

 

 

 

Mac

[mackerr]

It has been hinted to me that there will be a single "knob" and a channel select that will be a standalone to the console. Kind of cool as it will be console brand independant but not truely integrated.

 

Intresting times...

 

Mark

That is the method currently used in the Roland RSS system. There is a remote control with 1 knob, and a channel select. The Aphex 1788a preamps use an 8 channel remote that can be switched between 8 units of 8 channels. When not using the Yamaha control surface, Optocore and Whirlwind rely on a computer control. Hopefully other consoles will be able to operate remote control preamps. The Yamaha consoles have their 9 pin control out which is supported by Optocore both in their own preamps, and via RS232 and RS484 data paths through the network. With Cobranet or Ethersound networks it may be possible to interface the control signals to network protocols. If the Aviom system has a remote that operates over the same cable as the audio, it may be possible to get the Yamaha control signal into the Aviom remote, via serial, or midi. As you say, interesting times.

 

Mac

[Chubby]

Hi All

Interesting discussion on digital snakes. Having used the Aviom system on a recent tour I have just placed a order for enough bits to build a 48/16 stagebox with two sets of output units (F.O.H and Recording splits) or two 32/16 stageboxes depending on whats in the diary. While I realise that the system does have a few limitations but the pro's far out way the cons in respect to cost and flexibility over a conventional copper and active stagebox solution.

Yes the pre-amp stage and gain control is at the stage end but in the applications which I will be using the system I don't see this as a problem at all.

I'm also convinced that only having 10-20m of copper signal cable between the Mic capsule and the pre-amp apposed to 50-100m with a traditional multicore has a lot to do with the "openness" of the sound which little DJ talked about.

On a show last night at the grovesnor house we ran a 60m 48/12 traditional multicore from the FOH to the stagebox then we used a heap of 12 pair sat cables to run down to the stage for the band. Next time I intend to use the Aviom run 1 Cat 5 cable from FOH to the amps/radio mics and then link onto the band stagebox with another. All my inputs and returns where I need them with just two cables FANTASTIC !! (and with no potential of ground loop and hums I can use local power for the self-powered PA,Monitor amps and FOH)

 

So with that in mind I doesn't bother me if my stage tech has to set my gains for me at the soundcheck and for the moment I have to go D-A before plugging into the line input cards on my DM2000 (can't wait for the MY Input card tho one less thing to pick up at the end of the night)

I'm sure that having made the investment something more attractive will turn up on the market in the next 12 months but a friend of mine once said

"you snooze you lose!".

 

Have fun

 

Chubbs

[philhjobim]

I am Tech Systems Minister at Westbourne Grove Church in London. We are running what is probably the first Ethersound church installation in the UK. Based around a DM1000 for the live mixer and a DME64 rack mounted matrix mixer which does the feed to remote rooms and can also run CDs and 4 radio channels from the rack without switching on the main mixer at all.

 

We have 4x8 channels of NetCira mike / line pres (MS88+MI6) which are made by Fostex for the stage input. They can be remotely setup from a computer at the mixer desk. The quality is fine for general use. I have recently tried the Yamaha AD8HR stage box with the Auvitran ES card conversion in place of the usual AES output. That sounds very nice, and can also be controlled over the ES link. It also has the advantage of front panel controls as well, and front panel meters. Its also about 3 times as deep!

 

There are 16 channel ES I/O cards for the Yamaha mixers

http://www.auvitran.com/view.php?products_AVY16-ES.php

 

DM1000 has two slots, so 32 channels of upstream audio can be extracted directly from the EtherSound chain, remaining in the digital domain. Of course the boards 16 analogue inputs are also available for local inputs such as CD and video. 32 channels of mixes and other output can be passed on.

 

The DME64 has 4 card slots, so 2 are filled with AVY16 cards to allow up to 32 EtherSound inputs. The other two are filled with anaolgue input cards allowing the signals from the rack CD, cassette, radio channels and DVD player to be brought in. The mixes for the speakers and remote rooms etc pass out on EtherSound through the AVY16 cards and on to the ES output devices.

 

The outputs are NetCira (MS88+SO2) which again are fine for general use. The conversion is slighty digital in quality and I have tried the Digigram ES8 out unit, which is a fair bit smoother, in fact its slightly more musical than the outputs direct from the DM1000.

 

The nice thing about this system is that its pretty well integrated now. The Ethersound chain can be setup from a computer plugged into the first unit, which has preamp and output level control as well as EtherSound channel allocation. The latest ES chips are bidirectional, so the same cable can carry 64 channels in the other direction allowing for example stage monitor mixes to pass back to the stage without running a return cable. I have not had any failures or significant problems with it. It just went in and .... works :blink:

 

The latency is something pretty low, 120 microseconds, which excludes the AD DA delay of course, but then that is no more than the DM1000 would introduce anyway, it just occurs in the outboard devices instead of at the mixer.

 

Phil