Short Throw Projectors on Stage

[Weir69]

Hi all,

 

I've got a show coming up where the director wants to make heavy use of projections. The problem is that due to the theatre being badly designed using a conventional powerful projector from FOH isn't possible. I've thought about using short throw projectors, even ultra short throw ones like this. I'd need to use at least two of them rigged above the acting area. This is am-dram so the budget isn't anything spectacular, we will probably be using consumer grade projectors. Hopefully this shouldn't be to much of a problem, the stage is small (don't have dimensions to hand though).

 

Having never used this type of projector before though I am somewhat apprehensive about using them on stage, has anyone here used them before and had any problems or anything I should bear in mind?

 

Thank you.

[Whiskers]

Hamish, without stage dimensions or more ideas of the directors vision its hard to say anything beyond "PERHAPS"

 

The items you mention look to be floor only, so there will have to be a groundrow to mask, they have a poor contrast ratio

 

so you will never get a full black out. If its projection and action always back project if possible then allow enough

 

space in front of the screen so NO light falls. Best get any projector and show director now in case expectation management

 

is required

 

 

P E R H A P S

[Stuart91]

We've had quite a few customers hire our short throw projectors to do this, with seemingly positive results. As whiskers suggests, lighting control is key. Projection that looks fine in a blackout can be hopelessly dim with a full stage wash going on in front of it.

 

How does the director envisage using the projection? If it is as a substitute for painted cloths, that will be a significantly harder task than playing clips during a blackout.

 

I don't have any direct experience of the projector you have linked to, but we have stock of two very similar models - CPA-100 and CPA-300s. Both can be suspended safely, and ours have been regularly hung from bars. (Bear in mind that even slight movements on the bar will muck up the projector alignment - even a minor refocus of a lantern on the same bar can knock it off)

 

I'd be wary of buying cheap projectors on eBay - the auction you linked to is almost certainly an ex-education install, so the projector will have had a lot of duty time. They say the image is bright but with an LCD projector you tend to get a washed out picture with a lack of vibrancy in the colours, as the panels fade over time. Also getting two that even vaguely match could be a bit of a challenge. Not such a problem if it is a separate screen either side of the stage, but a big deal if you have them both butted against each other.

[pmiller056]

When using this type of projector, the 'screen' must be absolutely flat and rigid otherwise the image will be distorted or obviously change shape if the screen moves even a tiny amount in a draught.

[Weir69]

always back project if possible

Unfortunately the backdrop in this venue is less than a meter from the cyc so this isn't possible.

 

How does the director envisage using the projection?

It's a panto so he is after bright, stylised graphics, hence the need for capable projection.

 

(Bear in mind that even slight movements on the bar will muck up the projector alignment - even a minor refocus of a lantern on the same bar can knock it off)

That's probably the biggest problem, the bars are hung from a grid which is then suspended from the ceiling, thus even moving the main curtain can move the whole lot. As suggested this could cause issues with distortion.

 

With that in mind is there any suitable alternative that might be worth investigating?

[timsabre]

How does the director envisage using the projection?

It's a panto so he is after bright, stylised graphics, hence the need for capable projection.

 

I'm afraid there is only going to be disappointment here. You are not going to achieve "Bright stylised graphics" at backcloth size from a consumer grade projector - they struggle to do "bright" even on a 8ft wide screen in a dimly lit room.

 

It is possible to do but you need to employ high powered professional projectors and they are not cheap to hire.

[alistermorton]

Without, as Tim says, hiring proper high powered professional kit, you can just about get away with it if you use a good, bright business style projector with a short throw lens intended for ceiling mount, and you are very careful to ensure that when you are using the projector none of your lighting is hitting the cyc directly, so back, cross and top lighting only, and only use the projection in scenes where the overall lighting level on stage is lower.

 

We've used just such an arrangement quite a few times, and with care it can work, but you're never going to achieve Olympics opening ceremony or The Wall quality. You may have to get involved in some expectation management.

[Shez]

The model you link to has an inherent design flaw whereby the mechanism that opens and closes the mirror wears out with tedious regularity. Replacing them isn't particularly fun or cheap; many of the ones you see on fleabay will have that particular issue.

 

As others have said, if you can't guarantee a really dark projection surface and absolutely no movement of projector or screen surface, it's not going to work well.

[vinntec]

We use a business-quality projector fairly often, particularly for multi-play productions like my last, and Juno and the Paycock where the image was there throughout but set ended short of the cyc.

 

Looking at the 10x10 plays, we have no sidelighting possibilities apart from pipe-ends, which would need to be profiles close to the cyc. So instead it is front light getting more and more steep getting closer to the cyc and always shuttered/barndoored to the bottom of the cyc + backlight from as upstage as we can get and a second set closer to the audience. I usually also have wider lighting which can splash on the cyc and/or flats when it doesn't matter as front + back is quite severe but does light well enough, but would be hard to watch for long periods. There is still about 1m from the cyc where faces won't be lit, so the director has to allow for this and have actors close to the cyc only for short artistic reasons (such as touching the Bowie wall in this case).

 

The projector is on LX1 and we need cyc lighting to disguise the edge of the picture (as it is not as large as our cyc). As the black is still visible, especially in a blackout, we have a mechanical douser closed where needed or put dark blue on the cyc.

 

It is certainly not simple and you will probably need a relatively large amount of stage lighting to have the stage bright but the cyc dark enough for the image to be clear - certainly no direct light on the area the projector is on and remember that you will get bounce off the floor and flats which you can't do much about other than very precise focusing to reduce the effect as much as possible. In my 10x10 case, the floor was white but I just about managed it with a lot of attention to detail.

 

Good luck!

[pmiller056]

If you decide that you have to use a projected image, remember that a smaller image will be brighter. I've used a similar type of projector to the one you linked to as part of a stage show - a 6ft (1.8m) wide image was nice and bright and did not get washed too badly by the stage lighting. An 8ft (2.4m) wide image was much dimmer and only useable with subdued stage lighting - we did not try anything larger. Even on a small stage, projecting a full cyc will require a much better projector than the type you linked to. To avoid embarrassment, these short throw projectors need a rigid mounting and a rigid screen because of the extreme angles used. Provided you understand the limitations of short throw projectors, they are really useful when used correctly.

[Weir69]

Thanks all,

 

I'm afraid there is only going to be disappointment here.

I was never expecting anything much and was wary of believing these projectors would do what I want, hence why I posted here. I realise I'm being hopeful but If we can't do it cheap then perhaps the director will fork out for more expensive equipment!

 

The model you link to has an inherent design flaw whereby the mechanism that opens and closes the mirror wears out with tedious regularity.

It was more a suggestion of what type of projector I was considering rather than the specific model. I appreciate your concern however but think I may have to ditch the short throw projector idea as I can't ensure it stays still.

 

The projector is on LX1 and we need cyc lighting to disguise the edge of the picture (as it is not as large as our cyc). As the black is still visible, especially in a blackout, we have a mechanical douser closed where needed or put dark blue on the cyc.

 

It is certainly not simple and you will probably need a relatively large amount of stage lighting to have the stage bright but the cyc dark enough for the image to be clear - certainly no direct light on the area the projector is on and remember that you will get bounce off the floor and flats which you can't do much about other than very precise focusing to reduce the effect as much as possible. In my 10x10 case, the floor was white but I just about managed it with a lot of attention to detail.

Those pictures look great. However In this venue the distance from LX1 to the cyc is only a few meters so a projector would have to be hung FOH. As such keeping the cyc dark can be a problem!

 

If I where to hire a projecor for FOH, which could be done with some more involved rigging plus the hassle of sending data, what would you suggest. Obviously we would hire this and it would have to stand up to a full, or nearly full, stage wash. Picking dimensions out of my head it would be about 7m from the cyc and the screen would be about 4m wide. It's a bit vague but all I've got right now!

 

Thanks for your help, it's much appreciated.

[alistermorton]

We hang our projector just upstage of LX1 inside the prosc and it covers most of a 6m x 4m area at a push. Judicious lighting angles, as Peter suggests, help to keep the light off the cyc. Have a look at these show photos - where a cloudy or starry sky is visible they came from a not particularly special Benq business projector rigged about 4 m high and about 4m from the cyc with a short throw lens fitted.

[sandall]

If it turns out that a longer throw isn't practicable Ricoh do a very short throw projector that doesn't use a fold-out mirror & can project from about 2 feet. It doesn't give the sharpest of images, but the one I demo'd could compete with daylight on a white(ish) wall. I don't know who might have them in hire stock though.

[Weir69]

We hang our projector just upstage of LX1 inside the prosc and it covers most of a 6m x 4m area at a push. Judicious lighting angles, as Peter suggests, help to keep the light off the cyc. Have a look at these show photos - where a cloudy or starry sky is visible they came from a not particularly special Benq business projector rigged about 4 m high and about 4m from the cyc with a short throw lens fitted.

Those photos do look good. All the rigging points upstage from LX1 foul the valance so we would need to use a vertical extension at the risk of blocking sight lines. This is probably the approach we will take now though.

 

If it turns out that a longer throw isn't practicable Ricoh do a very short throw projector that doesn't use a fold-out mirror & can project from about 2 feet. It doesn't give the sharpest of images, but the one I demo'd could compete with daylight on a white(ish) wall. I don't know who might have them in hire stock though.

Unfortunately I doubt short throw projectors are the way forward due to their sensitivity to movement. I took a look at their range but even if they are less susceptible I doubt we can get them on hire, we are somewhat out the way in the North East!

 

To avoid embarrassment, these short throw projectors need a rigid mounting and a rigid screen because of the extreme angles used. Provided you understand the limitations of short throw projectors, they are really useful when used correctly.

Sorry, never saw your reply earlier but you've hit the nail on the head; it would be difficult in this venue to prevent the projector moving slightly at times. To further complicate things I was planning on using two, depending on how we rig the screen this might possible but a longer throw from a single projector now seems the better option.

 

Thanks again!

[alistermorton]

One one show we did we had a circular screen and a projector both suspended on fly bars. Aligning those was "fun" but it worked remarkably well, probably helped by the screen being solid rather than fabric, so it didn't "billow" in draughts.