PA Advice

[James]

Hi,

 

I apreciate that this bunch of questions isn't exactly theatre related involving both a band and a church as it were, but I would apreciate any opinions out there about problems I might have with what I plan to do.

 

Alternitavly if you know anywhere better I could post to get advice on this please let me know, as I haven't done this kind of thing for a while, I'm a bit rusty and don't have an awful lot of time for the get in/soundcheck.....

 

I'm going to be doing a band next week and I've got a couple of questions as it is a cuple of years since I last did a whole band.

 

(Band = Lead Vox, Guitar, Keys, Bass + Drums + 2 Vox.)

 

This is in a medium sized octagonal church as tall as it is wide with the band against a screen across one side. I don't think there will be more than 200 people there.

 

I am using most of my rig that I use for theatre and the bits and pieces that the church have.

 

Foh will be 1 EV SX300 on each side and 1 SB121. This is all that is available.

 

My problem is with the drums. I don't normaly deal with them in theatre and I don't realy have the equipment to cope. so I have a couple of questions mainly about drums.

 

1 Drum fill.

 

I have an EV SX300 that I can use, I was assuming it would be best if I could raise it up and have it at the drummers head height on one side of the drummer, Is this the best way of doing it or should I have it on it's side in wedge form?

 

2 Drum Mics.

 

I don't have any proper drum mics so I was going to use

 

High Hats - AKG Blueline - CK91 cap

Snare - SM57

Overhead - AKG Blueline - CK91 cap

Kick - AKG D190

Toms - SM58 x 2

 

This is the only selection of mics I've got available, I've also got a ck98 cap for one blueline if poss? I also have some lavaliers from my theatre setup - is it worth using these on the Toms rather than 58's which are in short supply or should I use the mics I've got in another configuration, ie save the 190 for a guitatar cab and use another '57 or '58?...

 

3 Gates?

 

I don't have any gates available but I do have a quad comp. I was going to use two chanels on the main desk output. Is it worth putting the other two channels on kick and snare or is this not worth it? Or is it worth using all 4 on drums.

 

I supose I could run the rig in mono which gives me three spare and a spare graphic channel

 

4 Graphics

 

I only have two - is it more important to put them on house output or on two monitor sends, Oh and I only have 4 sends but 5 cabinets so shich should I group, I was thinking..

 

Monitors

1 - Lead Singer

2 - Keys & Bass

3 - Guitar

4 - Drums

 

Is this the best way to do it and if I should put the graphic on the monitors which are more important

 

If I don't use the graphics I can re-route the monitor sends through the desk on some spare chanels to use the chanels eq - is it worth doing this?

 

I think this is more than enough questions for now and I have more than shown my ignorance of bands and I would be gratefuly apreciative of any advice that you might give me.

 

Thanks. (apologise for the length and lack of any smilies)

[Thirdtap]

Being very non soundy myself could I suggest that you might not need to mic the drum kit up much or at all?

I have seen kits used unmic'ed except for bass drum in largish venues (1000+ people) it sounded ok. I think that the group did keep the volume down so as not to drown it out, which might be a problem with some musos.

[James]

I think that the group did keep the volume down so as not to drown it out, which might be a problem with some musos.

 

Always a problem, :D

 

as I understand it - there are two guitars and a bass, and I have yet to see any guitarist of this level turn it down :o , though it would be lovely if the could! I know that they always say that their amps add so much tone to the sound but it would be so much nicer if I could di everything and just give them enough in their monitors.

 

cheers.

 

 

(prepared to be flamed by any guitarists on the group for those sugestions!)

[Dave]

James,

 

I used to do loads of small band gigs in my mis-spent youth.

 

The main problem you will find is that spill from the stage (drums, guitars amps, and monitors) will probably be quite loud and will force up the volume of the PA and/or reduce the need to amplify instruments.

 

I would always recommend getting guitarists to point their amps back towards them, or cross stage, rather than facing out into the audience.

 

To briefly answer your questions:

 

Drum fill - the nearer the drummer's ears it is, the quieter it will have to be, so I would say raise it up if at all possible.

 

Drum mics - as has been noted, you may not need to fully mic the kit for this size of gig, depending on the style/volume of music. At this scale, micing the hihat is unlikely to be necessary, and overheads are also often not worth bothering with. Have never tried D190 on kick, but would not recommend it - likely to sound awful and/or be overloaded.

 

Comps - be careful about putting comps on mix as they tend to pump a lot, particularly due to bass guitar or kick. Use on vocals will give much better results. I have also compressed guitar and bass in the past.

 

Monitor Sends - ask the band what they want!

 

Graphics - put them where the need is greatest. Your EV rig is good and unless the room acoustics are awful my feeling is that they will be better off on the monitors (especially lead vocal) to improve gain before feedback. You don't say what your monitor speakers are (apart from the drum fill) but many cheap ones are pretty grotty and a graphic might improve them. Unless the singers are professionals they are unlikely to have strong voices or good mic technique and I have often found that getting the foldback loud enough can be tricky.

 

Using channel eqs on monitors is unlikely to be of much use.

 

As a general note, it helps with this sort of query if you give a few more details - particularly the style of music, but also the instruments (is the guitar electric or acoustic?) and the rest of the PA equipment.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Dave.

[James]

Hope this helps,

 

Dave.

 

Thanks dave this does help a lot,

 

As a general note, it helps with this sort of query if you give a few more details - particularly the style of music, but also the instruments (is the guitar electric or acoustic?) and the rest of the PA equipment.

 

general christian worship band is as much as I know so I'm assuming strongly vocal led with rock portions and extended ambiant and or percussive bits but then again I don't get to hear the band before the event so I'm a bit blind on the subject.

 

The church as I said is octagonal however is has a balcony running around the 5 sides facing the "stage" where there may be some punters depending on takeup I assume. Lots of wood with a high pitched roof. Most of the big glass windows are above the balcony.

 

The main problem you will find is that spill from the stage (drums, guitars amps, and monitors) will probably be quite loud and will force up the volume of the PA and/or reduce the need to amplify instruments.

 

I would always recommend getting guitarists to point their amps back towards them, or cross stage, rather than facing out into the audience.

 

That sounds nice, less direct amp sound going into the vocal mics :D

 

(When you mean pointing back towards them I assume you mean in front of them, ?)

 

 

Drum mics - as has been noted, you may not need to fully mic the kit for this size of gig, depending on the style/volume of music. At this scale, micing the hihat is unlikely to be necessary, and overheads are also often not worth bothering with. Have never tried D190 on kick, but would not recommend it - likely to sound awful and/or be overloaded.

 

from what I remember, the theoretical order to add mics is kick, snare, hats, toms, o/h... but that is half remembered and could be recording biased!

 

Wherever I've got the possibility of an extra mic I usualy try to put one in there earlier and not use it in the mix rather than regret it later, but then it's been a while since I did anything like this and I probably want to cover my bases so to speak!

 

So without anything else, rather than the D190, what do you recomed for kick out of '57, '58 or ck91?

 

Comps - be careful about putting comps on mix as they tend to pump a lot, particularly due to bass guitar or kick. Use on vocals will give much better results. I have also compressed guitar and bass in the past.

 

So you would recomend their use on vocals rather than drums or mix, sounds sensible.

 

However if they have a DJ again for in-between bits I'l have to give them a couple of limiters for my PA's sake!

 

I have 5 monitors available on 4 sends, 1 Tannoy T12, 2 SX200's 2 SX300's I suppose it does make sence to use one on lead singer's monitor, thinking about it I could run the rig in propper mono with the other inserted on main or save it for where necessary..

 

Thanks again for the advice and help. Apreciate it,

 

James

[Dave]

James,

 

Don't have the time to do a cut and paste with the quotes.

 

Band doesn't sound too loud/heavy to me so I'm sure you can skip the hihat and overheads if needed. By all means mic them up just in case - let us know how you get on.

 

I did mean the amps in front of the guitarists.

 

There's very little "theory" in live sound, especially when drum kits are concerned!

 

Would experiment with 57 and 58 on kick and see which sounds best.

 

Understand your point about the DJ. Why not insert the comp/lim into his channels when he's playing and re-patch it for the band if you have time??

 

Cheers,

 

Dave.

[tonymaslen]

The main problem that I see is the Octagonal room, as it play merry whatsit with the Acoustics, as the church we meet in every Sunday is the same! Not nice major bottom end roll around

 

Would recommend running mono front of house to give more EQ’s available to the monitors if you run out of sends then just have a few mix's on the stage vocal, guitars and a separate one for the drummer....

 

Putting the drummers speaker at ear height might help, we have done many a gig with it sitting on the floor to the side of the drummer facing up at him.

 

Just did a gig at the weekend where the fold back was 300watts each cab it was ample to cope with it.

 

Micing the drum kit, overheads are fine snare and bass covered then place on the floor tom as the Blue line picks up a mouse sneezing in the vestry! (Believe me was recording an acoustic guitar.... said guitarist was singing along under his breath, yup you guessed it, we got the lot!) :D

 

The gig should be quality fun, these things normally are... I hope all goes well for you let me know!

:o

[Paul J Need]

If nothing else try and mic the Kick, snare and high hat, you might not need much if any reinforcement for the kit depending on the venue......

Mainly I like to mic snare, kick, high hat, all the toms...... with a gate on all of them apart from the high hat. with compression on the kick in line with its gate.

 

If the venue is small enough - you may get away with just a vocal mix..... ie let the guitars and kit take care of themselves and just amplifier the vocal. The Kit player may need some bass guitar in his/her foldback but nothing much else.

 

Vocal foldback essential.

 

Gates One for Kick and snare..... toms is you mic these. Also compress the kick also helps get a tighter sound.

 

Compression on a bass guitar is useful.

 

However----- if you have never used gates or compressors before they will probably be more trouble than they yare worth.....

 

The comment about facing the amps for bass and guitars across stage is a very useful tip is you are using a small lPA such as the one you have available, facing upstage can cause problems with slap off the up stage wall... so you hear it twice...... so you get a muddy sound.

 

 

Where and when is the gig........ you need a hand with it? May be quite a giggle to come along for the crask :D

[James]

Where and when is the gig........ you need a hand with it? May be quite a giggle to come along for the crask

 

Friday 27th, South West London.

 

It looks like becoming one of those events where it's either going to cry out for more help - or there won't be half as many expected people turning up and all I do will be overkill. ;)

 

I also don't yet know exactly how far my responsibility is going to go yet.... have been brought in by the venues LX / Video guy and I'm meeting the venues guy who "He used to be a roadie" and "tends to do some of the tech stuff for them when they are on tour"

 

So I don't know what he is like yet, I don't know what state their kit is in yet and I'm still not exactly sure what the specification is for 27'th

 

And anyway Paul, aren't you going to recomend a certain hire company where I could pick up the essential bits that I need that I can't afford to hire on account of having no budget ;) as in a kick mic, 4 more graphics and a quad comp?? ;)

[Paul J Need]

Where and when is the gig........ you need a hand with it? May be quite a giggle to come along for the crack

 

 

 

And anyway Paul, aren't you going to recomend a certain hire company where I could pick up the essential bits that I need that I can't afford to hire on account of having no budget ;) as in a kick mic, 4 more graphics and a quad comp?? ;)

No actually James,

 

The beauty of having kit available on the shelf it that if I want to go out for a crack, do some live sound ( which I enjoy ever such a lot) I was going to offer to bring the kit you hadn't got, perhaps even the entire system along and have a giggle together.......... pound signs never even entered my head.

 

Cheers

[Stu]

Well as your being so considerate to the needs of the poor, I couldn't half do with some Source Four's for a tour in September on the blag ;)

 

Stu

(Oh yes, I know the difference between one day and 2 months. Hehe)

[Paul J Need]

hehehehehehehehe Stu.. nice one.........

 

Yeah. a little different from 1 day to 60 days....... B)

 

Perhaps you should call Stage LX... I hear they are offering free lighting rigs if they do the transport......... ;)