Blue Room technical forum: Rescue Plan and Tallescope Usage - Blue Room technical forum

Jump to content

Warning

IMPORTANT The Blue Room Safety Forum is provided for the informal discussion of safety-related technical production matters. No warranty is implied concerning the accuracy of any information contained therein. The administrators of this site can accept no responsibility for any inaccuracy of information in the Safety Forum, or for any loss, damage or injury arising from any interpretation of its contents. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the site administrators. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.
  • 8 Pages +
  • « First
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Rescue Plan and Tallescope Usage

#46 User is offline   Andrew Edwards 

  • (previously roottwo)
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 377
  • Joined: 01-June 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Leicestershire

Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:52 PM

OK. here is my take which I had been holding onto...

Fire brigade turn up. (I can nearly see my station out of my office window)

Push Talle up against a wall. (ABTT method or otherwise)

Lean ladder against Talle.

'fireman's lift' the casualty down the ladder.

Although never from a Talle, I cannot count the times I have seen this particular rescue method used with my very own eyes. Indeed, I would say that it is harder to do this from a window in a burning room than a relatively open cage (for us) about 5m in the air.
(My father is a retired fire officer and retired fire/H+S consultant, so I have been to my fair share of open days)

I'm with Ramdram on this one...I can't see how the HSE cannot accept that this is reasonably practicable for our organisation. Along side all the effort put into to reducing the likelihood of rescue being required in the first place.

Edit: Clarification

This post has been edited by Andrew Edwards: 01 March 2012 - 01:53 PM

Buzz Lightyear stood on my foot...

#47 User is offline   kerry davies 

  • Retired Non-Gentleman
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 2,483
  • Joined: 23-February 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hay-on-Wye

Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:53 PM

Actually Kit, as you know it states; DO NOT RELY ON THE FIRE BRIGATE(sic) in shouty capitals. WaH Guides

See also the requirement for rescue plans at; Rescue

Quote

Organisation and planning – Regulation 4
(1) Every employer shall ensure that work at height is … properly planned
(2) Planning of work includes planning for emergencies and rescue.


Another link might be appropriate here FFI
If EHO's eventually adopt FFI, which they possibly could, it will change everything to do with H&S enforcement dramatically. Read it!

Seano, good post covering most of it. Josh has a sprung floor and genies are just about out of the question and the "shall" is under Reg 4 above. Your reference to acceptable risk levels being far higher under "emergency action" is really important for people to bear in mind as is the risk involved with the rescue plan itself. Can you please PM me a link to that NTBTSSB stuff and educate this old fart.

Ram, I completely agree that this is a giant PITA, but do read the FFI link to see what could be coming, and coming very soon. You may not ever end up in court because FFI depends solely on the opinion of the inspector.

Please, everyone, if you haven't got your H&S paperwork and systems slap bang up to date do it now. April is almost upon us.

Edit to add; See, Andrew has the basis of a rescue plan right there. It may need tweaking but it is for emergency use and incalculably better than not having any plan.

This post has been edited by kerry davies: 01 March 2012 - 01:57 PM


#48 User is offline   ramdram 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 1,378
  • Joined: 20-April 10
  • Location:Far East Cornwall

Posted 01 March 2012 - 03:27 PM

If a bod dies you will be in the Coroner's Court, which I believe is mandatory for serious accidents/death. It would be the DPP who would start the ball rolling after consultation with H&S presumably? And then possibly Court.

This discretionary thing is just that, discretionary. Plus we don't know if the relatives might decide to bring a private prosecution...and I cannot see discretionary being an option there.

By coincidence I am working this evening...in the cast we have a Judge and in the tech we have the director of a law firm's premises dept. He deals with H&S and even knows about the true definition of "competent persons"...

I shall bend their ears.

#49 User is offline   Seano 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 1,258
  • Joined: 05-December 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Yorks

Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:08 AM

View PostYnot, on 01 March 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

I've just scanned the actual WAHR 2005 document (don't have time at the mo to dig too deep) but can't see ANY reference in the fine print there which says any such thing...
There's not a great deal on rescue either...

In the legislation itself its just a few words which are easily missed. Regulation 4 section 2

View Postkerry davies, on 01 March 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Your reference to acceptable risk levels being far higher under "emergency action" is really important for people to bear in mind as is the risk involved with the rescue plan itself. Can you please PM me a link to that NTBTSSB stuff

Higher certainly. I'm not so sure about far higher, it depends what you mean by "far". ;)

You're suffering from acronym fatigue! I was just being silly, sorry... Not The Best Thing Since Sliced Bread

Quote

Edit to add; See, Andrew has the basis of a rescue plan right there. It may need tweaking but it is for emergency use and incalculably better than not having any plan.

Again - that all depends, imo. That plan asks a fair bit from the individual on the ladder, both skill and physical prowess.
(The kind of physical prowess, incidentally, that 21st century 'elf culture is usually telling people they must not practice in the workplace: one does not develop that kind of strength in an environment where its a disciplinary offence to pick up more than one stageweight at a time.).

Also, there's no skill without practice. If a rescue plan involves risks not acceptable unless there's a genuine emergency and also requires any significant degree of skill then yet another complication arises - how do you train for it?

This post has been edited by Seano: 02 March 2012 - 01:55 AM


#50 User is offline   Andrew Edwards 

  • (previously roottwo)
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 377
  • Joined: 01-June 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Leicestershire

Posted 02 March 2012 - 08:33 AM

It's the brigade doing the ladder lift not me.

The only reason it isn't me is I am not particularly strong, do not have the same ladder as the brigade and finally do not have the facility to practice (as in drill and actual rescue).

Again, in order for me to be able to perform this daring rescue the cost for my time to get fit, maintain that fitness, the 'brigade quality' ladder and practice would cost way more than my aforementioned concrete/gr15 solution.

Edit to add.

The part the venue plays in this plan is to make sure that all the brigade need to do is bring the ladder in and haul the casualty down. Even with the station over the road, I am confident that I could get the Tallescope to a clear wall before they arrived. Chances are the Talle would be there before the conversation with 999 finished. For those that have never made a 999 call, it isn't a particularly quick call.

This post has been edited by Andrew Edwards: 02 March 2012 - 08:39 AM

Buzz Lightyear stood on my foot...

#51 User is offline   ramdram 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 1,378
  • Joined: 20-April 10
  • Location:Far East Cornwall

Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:55 AM

Had a chat with the H&S bod. Unless the folk doing the rescue with ropes, etc, were trained, in rescue, it was a non starter. Plus the drill would have to be practised regularly, in different scenarios.

And, if you are practising the drill you could just as easily be practising using the tallescope in a safe manner, if you follow?

Verdict: Don't mess about, call 999 straight away.

Top Tip: Ensure you have your paperwork sorted...

#52 User is offline   GRisdale 

  • Part-timer
  • PipPip
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 283
  • Joined: 08-November 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northants

Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:08 PM

Did someone say tallescope? I think the scrap price for aluminium is about 1.50 per kilo at the moment.

In regards to rescue plans, I've never been shown how to practically retrieve an unconscious casualty from a tower without calling the brigade out - presumably builders practice this kind of thing all the time? <_<

People still seem stuck in the mindset that a sprung floor means that a powered lift is out of the question. This is nonsense! You can get a push around power lift platform to come in at around 500kg with operator. That weight is distributed across four wheels and four out-riggers. If a fat person walked onto your stage and stood on one leg would you have a risk assessment in place? I guess this is why dancers are so thin - if they weren't they would fall through the floor on landing.

Rather than assuming that your stage floors won't take anything put a talle, tower or Zarge give your nearest powered access supplier a call and get them to visit you. You might even find your floor has enough capacity to carry something that you can drive at height - and they're not as expensive as you'd think. It will cost you nothing and would be much better use of your time than trying to concoct rescue plans for tallle emergencies (that will never really be practical before two man rocket powered jet pants become widely available). With the downturn in construction they might even have a surplus in their hire fleet to flog you on the cheap.

Incidentally the rescue plan for an unconscious casualty stuck up a powered access platform or scissor lift is pretty much "pull the red handle and wait for them to descend". It's almost as if they'd thought about it for you when designing the equipment!

Gareth.

#53 User is offline   the kid 

  • 0000FF
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 2,340
  • Joined: 11-December 03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 03 March 2012 - 10:38 PM

View PostGRisdale, on 03 March 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Did someone say tallescope? I think the scrap price for aluminium is about 1.50 per kilo at the moment.


Say that to the H&S bods at work who scrapped my one for 50 a year or so ago

View PostGRisdale, on 03 March 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Rather than assuming that your stage floors won't take anything put a talle, tower or Zarge give your nearest powered access supplier a call and get them to visit you. You might even find your floor has enough capacity to carry something that you can drive at height - and they're not as expensive as you'd think. It will cost you nothing and would be much better use of your time than trying to concoct rescue plans for tallle emergencies (that will never really be practical before two man rocket powered jet pants become widely available). With the downturn in construction they might even have a surplus in their hire fleet to flog you on the cheap.


HAving been there, everyone said the point on my floor was not enough (about 500kg per 3inch wheel/outrigger) and the lightest drivable was about 3-4tonne. BUT having someone come out was the best thing to help that decision (even if I was not allowed in on the final one ( can you tell I am a bit bitter))
Excuting change in this place is like trying to knock down a windmill with a mug of soup.
..."Who are you going to believe," he said, "Some crusty old man or a magic rhinoceros that can grant wishes?"
Moving to Sweden

#54 User is offline   GRisdale 

  • Part-timer
  • PipPip
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 283
  • Joined: 08-November 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northants

Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:46 PM

View Postthe kid, on 03 March 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

HAving been there, everyone said the point on my floor was not enough (about 500kg per 3inch wheel/outrigger) and the lightest drivable was about 3-4tonne.

How high did you need to go!?
GR20 = 8m working height at 1,200kg weight.

#55 User is offline   JGOT 

  • Casual
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 23-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The West Country

Posted 05 March 2012 - 11:21 PM

Hi all, not been looking at or posting on this thread as I've had a lot of actual work to do this week! It is, however, very gratifying to come back and read that most of things that people have been suggesting have been things I've been up to anyway.

Quote

Organisation and planning Regulation 4
(1) Every employer shall ensure that work at height is properly planned
(2) Planning of work includes planning for emergencies and rescue.


This. I interpret this as meaning that rescue planning is essential.

A brief update on the situation - I have been meeting with a lot of different folks about this problem including the H&S officer for the school my theatre is nominally attached to, manufacturers of varying kinds of access equipment, the manufacturer of my sprung floor, the company that installed the fly system, other industry people etc. Today I had a highly qualified and experienced ex-mountain rescue guy come in and give me a very detailed and plausible way in which we could do a rope rescue of a casualty in the tallescope basket. Whilst I'm sure that it would work in the narrowest sense of the word, it is totally impractical for my situation given that my 'crew' is a motley collection of students, volunteers, amdrams, school caretakers and outside hires of varying competancies. If I were trained up to a level were I was capable of performing this rescue, I would never be able to use the 'scope (in case I was the casualty) and I would never get any holiday, ever, as the building would have to go dark when I wasn't around.

Quote

Rather than assuming that your stage floors won't take anything put a talle, tower or Zarge give your nearest powered access supplier a call and get them to visit you. You might even find your floor has enough capacity to carry something that you can drive at height - and they're not as expensive as you'd think. It will cost you nothing and would be much better use of your time than trying to concoct rescue plans for tallle emergencies (that will never really be practical before two man rocket powered jet pants become widely available). With the downturn in construction they might even have a surplus in their hire fleet to flog you on the cheap.


Also this. I'm convinced as a result of my research that what I need is not a new rescue plan but a new piece of access equipment. I've got a number of demos booked in and am scouting for more.

One (kinda) humorous upshot has been that the school estates department have changed ALL of their risk assessments to do with WaH as a result of my asking these questions. They are now going to train every single member of their team on performing rope rescues from the scaff towers that they use for painting, construction and general maintainence purposes. I wish them the best of luck with all that!

Thanks again BR - I'm going to be mental busy again for a bit, but have a soft deadline for getting this sorted by mid-April, so hopefully will update then.
Theatrical Photography: OvernightCopyright.com

#56 User is offline   bigclive 

  • Technical Manager
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 846
  • Joined: 12-July 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:01 PM

I believe that the official health and safety approach to tallescope safety is to have a cherry picker follow it around continually on the stage with a trained rescue operative in the basket.

#57 User is offline   Riddle 

  • Climbing the roster
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 26
  • Joined: 20-February 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:51 PM

First, an apology, this is purely for context.


The company I work for, heightec, manufactures specialist work kits and rescue systems for people who earn a living by being support in a harness. We have training venues throughout the UK; I manage and work from the London centre.

Just before Christmas last year I undertook a rescue demonstration of an incapacitated, uncooperative casualty from a Tallescope. The casualty and rescue team were made up of theatre technicians and a senior manager from the Group. The exercise was carried out at the invitation of the ABTT with the many, many interested parties in attendance, including the HSE.

The techniques used were design only as a last resort, that is to say all other attempts have been made and exhausted, e.g MEWPS, self rescue, ladders, mobile tower scaffold. The equipment used was a specifically made for rescue and designed to keep the rescue team safe, minimizing the risk of secondary casualties.

The level of risk is huge and this is one rescue that would not be happy about undertaking, however with the right training, equipment and practice and practice and more practice it can be achieved.

For your interest, the HSE will not allow you to rely on the emergency services to undertake a rescue from height for you, it is your risk, you are expected to manage it. By all means include them in your rescue plan, especially Ambulance H.A.R.T

If you are interested to know more, I would be happy put you in touch with the theatre concerned and discuss this rescue in more detail. Please PM me.

Thank you for reading my post.

Roger

This post has been edited by Riddle: 22 March 2012 - 04:06 PM


#58 User is offline   kerry davies 

  • Retired Non-Gentleman
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 2,483
  • Joined: 23-February 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hay-on-Wye

Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:59 PM

I have been reluctant to resurrect this topic BUT: HSE News

I leave it entirely up to others to interpret the HSE strongly recommending the CoP while stating simultaneously that they will "..continue to support enforcement action where necessary to ensure Tallescopes are used safely."

They are still working on rescue plans and promise to publicise any findings.

#59 User is offline   ramdram 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 1,378
  • Joined: 20-April 10
  • Location:Far East Cornwall

Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:25 PM

I don't see how HSE won't allow folk to rely on the Emergency Services...sounds like discrimination to me and thus HSE should think again. Is there something in law?

However, that said, it does go some way to supporting the argument that HSE don't want tallescopes used...anywhere.

Seems like a silly way to try to stop the use of. Can you imagine how the Press would treat such a view held by HSE, if someone died as a result? And some poor rescuer manque saying in the Coroner's court that HSE said we were not allowed to call 999.

#60 User is offline   ninjadingle 

  • Regular
  • Pip
  • Group: Regular Members
  • Posts: 131
  • Joined: 30-November 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wiltshire, UK

Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:42 PM

One thing I've been wanting to say since earlier on in this thread but I have bitten my lip until now....

Those of you relying on the Fire Service for your rescue plan - what are you going to do if this fire service strikes again?

(Trust me - the "trained" military "volunteers" will not be attempting any rescue with ladders or otherwise...)

Share this topic:


  • 8 Pages +
  • « First
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic