Digital Mixers for Live work

[BlueShift]

Oooh - I like the sound of seminar D!

 

I was definately very impressed with the M7CL at PLASA - it fills the gap in the market for mid-range, intuitive digital consoles that wont scare the die-hard analog fan away. And the fact that it is made by Yamaha, who have been making digital desks forever is reassuring.

 

No doubt they will sell like digital hotcakes! :)

[Chris Hinds]

I was going to say M7CL, but I think the other Yamaha fans got there first... Suffice to say I was very impressed at PLASA.

 

Regards

 

Chris

[Theatretech]

Please have a look at the Soundcraft 324 live desk. It offer 32 channels, 4 aux, 4 matrix, 4 group, built in lexicon FX X 2, and IS DESIGNED FOR LIVE WORK.

 

We bought one 4 years ago and it's a brilliant desk. If you know analogue, you can jump on the desk straight away. No horrible menus to page through, everything is less than two button presses away.

 

I would buy one for you if I could (sorry I cant)

 

Am interested in the 40' stage as well.

 

[Bobbsy]

Well having heard the rumours of the MC7L pricing, I wouldn't classify it as "low budget". It's supposed to be about the same price as a comparable medium/high-end analogue desk (which is fantastic value, but not cheap).

 

Well, if you take Midas or Cadac as the high end, I'd put the MC7L in the "low to mid" range!

 

Seriously, when comparing analogue and digital you also have to consider all the previously-outboard gear that the digidesk includes. As configured, my DM1000 cost me a bit over £5K, but that includes four channels of Yamaha effects, gate and compressor limiter on every channel, a level of automation usually only found on really expensive desks, etc etc. If I'd bought all this separately to augment an analogue board, it would have added many thousands of pounds to the price.

 

And, yup, I think the M7CL is the perfect answer to the original question. As much as I love my DM1K (and the DM2Ks and PM5Ds I use regularly), the new Yammie is going to set a new benchmark for price vs functionality...and is certainly a cheaper alternative to the D5 for many applications.

 

Bob

[mackerr]

And, yup, I think the M7CL is the perfect answer to the original question. As much as I love my DM1K (and the DM2Ks and PM5Ds I use regularly), the new Yammie is going to set a new benchmark for price vs functionality...and is certainly a cheaper alternative to the D5 for many applications.

 

Bob

??? Where is there any comparison between a D5 and an M7CL? Yes, the M7CL is a cheaper alternative to a D5. So is pretty much every other digital console there is. When Midas and Cadac get their digital offerings out the door that will change. Even a PM1D is a cheaper alternative. I don't know what pricing is like in the UK, but in the US an M7 has a list price of US$25,000 for a 48 channel, and US$20,000 for a 32 channel. In my mind that would indeed put it in the low mid catagory, a little less than half the price of a PM5D. It is not intended as an alternative to a US$150,000 D5, or even a US$65,000 PM5d, nor is it one. For about the same money, a DM2000 has more input capability, more mix buses, more encoders, higher sampling rate, and more expansion slots. The M7CL is a nice desk, and I am sure Yamaha are going to sell a lot of them, but I am not yet sure it is the be all and end all of digital consoles.

 

Mac

[Bobbsy]

Hi Mac,

 

I think the difference with the M7CL is that it's an affordable digital console aimed specifically at live work. It features a fader per channel (i.e. no layers) and leaves off the post production automation features that I paid for on my DM1K but don't use. That's where I get my comparison to the Digico D5 from, since (paraphrasing) the original request was for recommendations for a digital live sound console cheaper than the D5. No, the new Yammie isn't in the same league but it does represent excellent value for money and, with a fader per channel, it silences at least some of the concerns that analogue users have about going digital.

 

Bob

[Chris Hinds]

In the UK a PM5d is about £43k for the RH model, a PM1d 96Ch is about £80k, an M7CL/48 is £15k and a D5 is £125k ish. The DM2000 is also about £15k in stock form but obviously needs 24 channels of MY cards and A8HDR pres added to it. They all have their place and I freely admit I understand the way the Yamaha Digitals work while I still can't get my head round the D5 on brief demos that I've had, not having used one in anger. I can't see many D5 customers looking at the M7 but it's not designed for that. It's designed to take sales from the MH3, Verona and Siena. In that respect I hope it succeeds very fast.

 

For me today one of the less obvious benefits of going digital came racing to the fore. No patching at FOH. I spent hours today fighting dead inserts, dead returns, intermittent EQ racks, you name it, today it happened. I long to have a system where I run a single AES/EBU XLR to my amp racks, and all I have at FOH is a console and my laptop. That's all I need. No racks, no rediculously heavy Heritage, and no patch leads to fail at whim. Joyous.

 

Regards

 

Chris

[BenWall]

I was actually at the launch of the M7CL at my uni. And yes, what a fantastic desk!

 

I have used PM1D, PM5D and D5 all of which are brilliant, however the M7CL is superb value for money.

A&H seem to be slowly getting into the market with the iLive. I am looking forward to demo'ing it in the next few weeks.

 

Ben.

[mackerr]

In the UK a PM5d is about £43k for the RH model, a PM1d 96Ch is about £80k, an M7CL/48 is £15k and a D5 is £125k ish. The DM2000 is also about £15k in stock form but obviously needs 24 channels of MY cards and A8HDR pres added to it. They all have their place and I freely admit I understand the way the Yamaha Digitals work while I still can't get my head round the D5 on brief demos that I've had, not having used one in anger. I can't see many D5 customers looking at the M7 but it's not designed for that. It's designed to take sales from the MH3, Verona and Siena. In that respect I hope it succeeds very fast.

 

For me today one of the less obvious benefits of going digital came racing to the fore. No patching at FOH. I spent hours today fighting dead inserts, dead returns, intermittent EQ racks, you name it, today it happened. I long to have a system where I run a single AES/EBU XLR to my amp racks, and all I have at FOH is a console and my laptop. That's all I need. No racks, no rediculously heavy Heritage, and no patch leads to fail at whim. Joyous.

 

Regards

 

Chris

It's nice to finally find one other person who has had the same experience as I have with the D5. Admittedly I was training on the D5T, which has a more complex scene programming environment, but compared to the Yamaha model of a "selected channel" control area I don't find the D5 as fast or elegent. I also felt that way about the M7CL. While I only got a couple of tours from a couple of different Yamaha people, it was not as fast to navigate as a DM2000, even for the Yamaha staff. It also has fewer mix buses. It is much sexier to look at, as is the D5, but being forced to use the touch screen to navigate menus is not a fast interface in my experience.

 

I also had a similar analog experience over the past 3 days. Using a Midas XL200/48 instead of the digital console I had requested. I had intermittant problems with insert patches, and some channels that would not work in PFL. The console seemed well maintained, and sounded fine when worked, but it didn't always work. The iserts were important as they had the parametric eq on the lavs and the lectern, and could not be bypassed without compromising the sound.

 

Mac

[Chris Hinds]

It's nice to finally find one other person who has had the same experience as I have with the D5. Admittedly I was training on the D5T, which has a more complex scene programming environment, but compared to the Yamaha model of a "selected channel" control area I don't find the D5 as fast or elegent. I also felt that way about the M7CL. While I only got a couple of tours from a couple of different Yamaha people, it was not as fast to navigate as a DM2000, even for the Yamaha staff. It also has fewer mix buses. It is much sexier to look at, as is the D5, but being forced to use the touch screen to navigate menus is not a fast interface in my experience.

I found that the M7cl interface was certainly different to other Yamaha boards, but still offered some aspects of similarity. It's a bit like Windows vs. Macintosh. Both can work for you but some just like one over the other. When I'm on the move and being intolerant I take a Mac Powerbook because it does all I ask, it's a bit different and its more stylish. I appreciate the control I can have on the desktop though, especially in a managed environment. Either way I do much of my control with the keyboard and not the mouse. The Yamahas give this option, the Digico interface doesn't seem to allow for that. It seems to be a pretty board certainly, but I understnad how the PM1d works, and I could probably mix ok on one without a problem. The D5 just seems a little bit odd to me. What's going on with all the random knobs with no real labelling. I know they are multifunction but I'd find myself doing a 3 stage process of select, check/set mode, alter parameter. The Yamaha I learn the selected channel area by heart and that's that. But then it's horses for courses. The D5 probably works for people who can't use a computer without a mouse and prefer it so.

 

I also had a similar analog experience over the past 3 days. Using a Midas XL200/48 instead of the digital console I had requested. I had intermittant problems with insert patches, and some channels that would not work in PFL. The console seemed well maintained, and sounded fine when worked, but it didn't always work. The iserts were important as they had the parametric eq on the lavs and the lectern, and could not be bypassed without compromising the sound.

I rarely use a digital desk in anger (in fact with the exception of Mark's excellent PM5d training session at Sound Foundation I've only used the 01v a couple of times) but now just about every time I wheel out our H1000 or MH3 I long for it to become an M7 or PM5d. When it gets to the point that you're checking cables and patches for 40 minutes and the repatch between bands is written on two outdated riders and a napkin, you've got crib sheets here there and everywhere, the comp on the backing vocal sometimes works and other times the insert crackles to hell... why analogue??? It just annoys me, it's heavy, it's bulky and for the majority of shows we do (12-18 inputs) we could use a m7CL/32 and no outboard at FOH and do the lot with a laptop next to us. A Pearl 2004 for off-topics an m7 for sound. A FOH area 1/3 the size, improved capacity, 1/4 the storage space, less setup time/strip time. The question is no longer 'why digital?' but 'why analogue?'

 

Chris 'Digital zealot' Hinds

[Mark Payne]

Hi Chris, Hi all

 

Our Demo/Sales Development M7CL's should be in this week.

The course date is still on for Thurs 3rd November on the M7CL.

 

You are all welcome to come in to that or I will lay something on for anyone that wants a demo and be shown around the board with some tracks comming in pseudo live.

 

Those nice people at Alesis are also helping me with some HD24's and I will have them Toslinked to the console as well.

 

PM me or email me mark@soundfoundation.com if you want to come on one of the sessions or look at an alternative date.

 

Cheers

 

Mark

[Chris Hinds]

Mark and his whole operation are superb, the day I spent there learning the PM5d was a day well spent and very useful.

 

Shameless plug: Go on one of Mark's courses!!!!

 

Regards

 

Chris

[Lamplighter]

Go on one of Mark's courses!!!!

 

YES YES YES!!!!