Blocked Exit

[Ike]

the problem is that when a fire occurs and someone has propped the door open, their first reaction isn't "oh, I'll close the door and get out", its "argh! fire! need to get out!"

 

door gets left open, fire separation is broken, people get trapped inside and die.

Luckily I've only been in one building with a big enough fire to warrant an evacuation (Oldham Sports Centre) and one of the first things I did on hearing the alarm and seeing the smoke was to close a fire door! If you study videos of major incidents I think you'll genuinely be surprised at how calm a lot of people are.

 

The thing that annoys me is scare mongering comments aimed at trying to back up blanket rules that don't make much sense in the first place. You could have just as easily said that someone was too afraid of propping a fire door open for even a second, ended up damaging the intumescent strip while moving a large bit of furniture, a fire starts, the door closes, leaks smoke, fire spreads and people die. If building managers and fire safety people would get down off their high horses and calmly and rationally explain the dangers I think it would be a lot better for everyone. Propping a door open for a few seconds when you're within sight of it isn't going to substantially increase the risk to anyone, if anything it's going to decrease the risk from holding a door open when carrying things through.

 

The law relating to this, in addition to the HSW act is the Regulatory Reform Order, which requires employers to do Fire Risk Assessments. You're breaking the law because you're interfering with measures put in place to increase your safety :D

I can't find anywhere in either source where it describes my actions as illegal, I'm also struggling to find any sections that could reasonably be interpreted that way. I'm genuinely interested to know the section numbers and yes I am too lazy to search properly.

At the end of the day what I'm talking about is not going to substantially increase the risk to life and/or property. I'm also pretty convinced I know at least two fire officers who would stand up in court and be my expert witnesses should some overzealous "Health and Safety" type ever manage to get a case against me to court, which even in todays climate isn't likely.

 

as is removing fire extinguishers from their points to prop doors open.

Actually I was talking about using one of the spare ones in the corner of my workshop waiting for me to service. :(

 

 

 

Overlapping posts:

 

Particularly the para at the bottom of that page which states "The law requires your employees to co-operate with you to ensure the workplace is safe from fire and its effects, and not to do anything which will place themselves or other people at risk."

As explained above I am not doing anything that "will place themselves or other people at risk" and I'm not to the best of my knowledge disobeying any rules laid down by the building management. So that makes me OK?

 

 

I'm not for a second saying that fire safety should just be given lip service, in fact I think the opposite: We should all give it more thought and try to understand the rules we're following.

[Ynot]

Particularly the para at the bottom of that page which states "The law requires your employees to co-operate with you to ensure the workplace is safe from fire and its effects, and not to do anything which will place themselves or other people at risk."

As explained above I am not doing anything that "will place themselves or other people at risk" and I'm not to the best of my knowledge disobeying any rules laid down by the building management. So that makes me OK?

Again, apologies for disagreeing, but no - that doesn't make you OK.

Like any sensible safety regs, it is NOT just the management who have a responsibility to ensure proper precautions are taken. And I'm still of the opinion that propping open a fire door IS potentially putting others at risk.

 

The key word there is of course 'potentially'.

Safety precautions are all about reducing the potential for hazards and thus incidents. On their own, they may very well seem small and petty, but taken as part of the broad picture many small measures can be VERY effective.

 

Let's move off the doors for a second... Concentrate on those pesky door-props - the big red ones...

 

Extinguishers in any public building have a place. And mostly, that place is hung on a wall on a pukka bracket. There are reasons for that bracket. a) it's to elevate the extinguishers to a handy pick-up height but more importantly b) to give them a specific location to live. That means that regular staff KNOW where they are and thus KNOW where to go if they need to get to one quick. If said extinguishers are removed and used as dor props then they're no longer where they can easily be located.

 

Imagine, then, a dark corridor in a building with a small fire - the fire's been caused by faulty electrics, which has also meant the lighting's off. A staffer, knowing that the fire is at the moment small, and knows where it is, decides that he may be able to have a first-stab at fighting said small fire because he knows where the nearest BCF extinguisher is. Except that earlier that evening, the cleaners propped open the door 20 feet down the corridor so they could polish the floor. He then wastes time looking for the means to fiht the fire, and by the time he finds it, gets back to the seat of the problem, it's now caught the surrounding framework and is now a blaze - fanned, I might say, by the draught through the previously wedged open fire doors at the other end of the corridor.....!

 

See my point?

It is NOT difficult to conceive of a situation like this, and see the potential for disaster when one ignores basic rules.

I have been fire marshall for 3 corporate buildings during past years in my day job. I once carried out a 3-floor fire check in a neighbouring company site and found that 30% of the extinguishers were not where they should have been - ALL were sitting rather innocently near self-closing doors..... And one was STILL holding open a door on the floor below, at the bottom of a flight of stairs, and had been for some time because there was a dirt ring underneath where the cleaners had cleaned ROUND it!! (needless to say that inspection received an 'F' and the resident marshall replaced..!)

 

I am however a realist, and I'm not saying that it is inconceivable for there to be a need to prop open a door during times of heavy traffic, but as I said above, what does get me is the fact that once traffic has gone through the doors REMAIN propped. Because either the person who began the traffic movement is no longer there, and no-one else takes responsibility, or simply that no-one can be a**ed to remove it.

 

Fire doors are there for a specific purpose, and by definition MUST be closed when in not in use. End of story.

Fire safety is one of those key areas that I personally feel should be taken VERY seriously, but too many people are far too complacent about.

[Ike]

Really long and rambling reply snipped!

 

I am however a realist, and I'm not saying that it is inconceivable for there to be a need to prop open a door during times of heavy traffic, but as I said above, what does get me is the fact that once traffic has gone through the doors REMAIN propped.

I agree completely!

[Andrew C]

For a relatively small sum (only slightly more than a 9l doorstop), door holdbacks can be purchased that release at sound levels produced by fire alarms. They seem to be approved for use on final exit and stairwell doors.

 

DoorGard

[Brian]

Fire precautions

 

Please remember that, however inconvenient self-closing fire doors and all other fire precautions may appear, these are measures that ensure your escape route is protected from flames, heat and smoke in the event of a fire. Since fire certificates have been issued to hotels in the UK (this category also covers halls of residence) not one life has been lost in a certified hotel. To ensure that these standards are maintained, the fire service can cause offenders to be prosecuted. The maximum penalty for each offence is a fine of up to £5,000 and/or two years in jail. Offences include propping or wedging open fire doors, unauthorised use of fire extinguishers, or tampering with detectors. ...

 

This section is quoted quite a lot on the 'net and I believe comes from the Fire Services Act 1947

[Soundie]

In the venue at my work we have agreement from the fire officer that we only need 3 fire exits (our of the 4 that we have). This means that we are able to block up to one exit at any one time, provided that all the others have clear access.

 

I have made a slip in blackout sign that goes in place of the green running man that indicates when a fire exit is not a fire exit. It proves very handy when we need a corner to put a band, or bit of set in.

 

The venue is pretty small and has a fair number of fire exits for its size, which is why I guess we have this agreement.

[mac.calder]

For a relatively small sum (only slightly more than a 9l doorstop), door holdbacks can be purchased that release at sound levels produced by fire alarms. They seem to be approved for use on final exit and stairwell doors.

 

You can also get ones that integrate with your fire alarm system (we have them on SOME of the fire doors at work). Metal plate at the top of the door, cool little electro magnet on the wall behind - push the door right open and it snaps into place. Then you can either pull the door closed (takes a fair effort), or hit the test button on the electromagnet to release the door. They require power to operate, so when power is cut, the door closes, or like ours, whenever an alarm is triggered, the door shuts. (Being a hotel, power is not cut upon the activation of the fire alarms)

[Johnno]

We have four corridor doors, not fire doors, that needed hooks to hold them open when I was shifting stuff about. I got the caretakers to install hooks upside down, ie hook pointing upwards. When the door was open the torque it exerted trying to close tensioned the hook against its ring preventing it falling and so held the door open. Press against the door and you released the tension letting the hook fall and the door close. This worked fine for a while but some teachers complained so the caretaker refitted the hooks upright. Within two months all four of them had been torn from the walls by children messing about. They've never been replaced. It's a useful way of doing things (if you are working with adults!)

[lightsource]

Particularly the para at the bottom of that page which states "The law requires your employees to co-operate with you to ensure the workplace is safe from fire and its effects, and not to do anything which will place themselves or other people at risk."

As explained above I am not doing anything that "will place themselves or other people at risk" and I'm not to the best of my knowledge disobeying any rules laid down by the building management. So that makes me OK?

Again, apologies for disagreeing, but no - that doesn't make you OK.

Like any sensible safety regs, it is NOT just the management who have a responsibility to ensure proper precautions are taken. And I'm still of the opinion that propping open a fire door IS potentially putting others at risk. [snip]

I agree with Ynot here, if anyone wants to disagree, watch the Great White fire video, and hear the screams of the punters being cooked by the flames. Does anyone want this on their conscience. Fire doors / extinguishers exist for a reason, the Great White Video clearly explains this reason.

 

A fire lasts minutes, but the consequences could be with you for the rest of your lives.....

 

So, it's one thing to quote your interpretation of H&S legislation, having never been actually involved in a fire where people have died, or been horiffically been scarred for life.

 

Think carefully about what you say on this topic, because one side of the topic references H&S issues, and general working practices - but the other side involves death and horrendous injuries.

 

Realistically, it could happen to any one of us. You just need the wrong circumstances at the right (wrong) time.

[Ike]

Hmmmm [stolen from Ynot]

 

 

How much can someone be misquoted in one thread..

 

I agree with Ynot here, if anyone wants to disagree, watch the Great White fire video, and hear the screams of the punters being cooked by the flames.

Right. Firstly I do on the whole agree with Ynot, as can be seen from my latter posts, particularly when I say (and I quote) "I agree completely!"

Secondly I have watched the Great White fire video and another supplied by a fire safety company which, in my opinion, was much more distressing. Were either of them useful? I honestly don't know, showing distressing videos in health and safety talks is forever going in and out of fashion, some experts say it helps others disagree. To be honest I struggle to keep up. Either way are you trying to suggest the great white fire was spread by someone propping a door open while they carry something through it? That is after all what I was talking about.

 

A fire lasts minutes, but the consequences could be with you for the rest of your lives.....

Yep, got a decent sized scare on my right hand and forearm to prove that!

 

So, it's one thing to quote your interpretation of H&S legislation, having never been actually involved in a fire where people have died, or been horiffically been scarred for life.

To be honest I think if I had seen someone die in a fire I'd be the last person to talk on the subject as I think you do need a certain amount of separation. A year or two ago I saw a biker die in a road traffic accident in Manchester, it was quite a horrific accident and I was in the worst possible place to see the aftermath. That certainly didn't make me an expert on road safety, the fact is I'm probably far to emotionally attached even two years later to make a sensible, rational decision on the subject.

 

All thats a bit besides the point anyway as I was actually trying to question the common assumption that the act of propping a fire door open is automatically a criminal offence which I've still not seen the evidence to back up. I could well be wrong, since Brian posted in this thread last I've not had a chance (or more honestly the motivation) to check the reference. I asked one of the highest ranking fire officers in the country the other day and his response was simply "I don't know", he said he'd ask legal next time he remembers...

 

OK so I'm being a bit pedantic, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter if it's illegal or not. If you do something that endangers others you are breaking the law and if you (to use the example I started with) propped a door open to carry something through it when you're say a couple of meters away at the maximum, charges would never be pressed.

 

Think carefully about what you say on this topic, because one side of the topic references H&S issues, and general working practices - but the other side involves death and horrendous injuries.

As do a lot of topics on the Blue Room. It certainly wasn't my aim to trivialise the subject and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Obviously I do know the importance of fire extinguishers, fire doors etc and was questioning the law everyone seems to quote and not the importance of the equipment itself.

[Trunker]

Definately should have been sorted. We put in a control platform at a school last week for a show above a door (only place it could go). Even though the hall had another 4 exits we kept the door viable as an exit as not to have H&S on our backs. EXITS are there for a reason