Blocked Exit

[V.A.]

Reporting people and being bolshy may well be one course of action, but I wouldn't expect anyone to take my word against the management, and I don't suppose you ever actually want to work there in the future, do you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have a duty under law to report anything which you feel is a risk to yours or others health and safety - if you don't you're just as much to blame, and are just as liable for any injuries or deaths which may occur.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Right - I can see I'm going to have to explain this.

 

I completely agree that it is everyones duty to prevent risk, wherever it exists. Reporting to the authorities, however, is a last resort process and the bolshy attitude of 'report first' is seriously going to damage your reputation, and walking out, refusing to work, calling in the heavy squad is going to damage your reputation just as much as taking an employer to an industrial tribunal. Not a good thing to have on your CV - any of this.

 

bulk of quote removed as Paulears reply was long enough already

 

I'll end by just thinking about things you have personally done, that you were sure were safe. How would you deal with the bod who tells you it isn't safe, when you know they are. Then because you don't agree, reports you. You may be right, you may be wrong - Would you emply that person again? Two letters, second one is 'O

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I take your point, but I think you're perhaps being a little melodramatic.

 

Even if you're not, I'd much rather lose my job and possibly my career than end up in prison or facing a large lawsuit....

[paulears]

I am being melodramatic.

 

It is important to note that legal action in this country has a good reputation in dealing with safety issues. remember the Hillsborough incident. The senior officials, who are the people responsible in law, take the blame - not the police constables or ground staff.

 

A far as I know, in UK law you cannot be blamed for not taking action, indeed, in the example cited here, you tried to make the management aware. I can't imagine any circumstances where you could therefore be blamed, so prison may be a little extreme here.

 

paul

[pumphouse]

A far as I know, in UK law you cannot be blamed for not taking action, indeed, in the example cited here, you tried to make the management aware. I can't imagine any circumstances where you could therefore be blamed, so prison may be a little extreme here.

 

paul

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In most areas of UK law, this is correct - but not in H&S. You can be held responsible for 'acts or omissions' that cause a breach. Ie not doing something you should have done makes you as culpable as having done something you shouldn't

 

I do agree about where the prosecutions will go though - They will start at the top, and work their way down the tree until they find people who did actually do the right thing. There are limits to what you can actually do in a position of limited authority, and the law will generally recognise this. If the correct policies and procedures are in place though, and you fail to follow them at your own level, then it will be you facing the judge.

 

Jason

[LXTECH]

Hi,

 

Just a note to add to my last message,

 

I had tryed to tell the managment the dangers but they kept trying to convince me that everything was fine and that it was standard practice. There was no way they were having anything that I was saying and I seemed that everything I said fell on deff ears. So for my safety, the casts safety and the publics safety I reported them.

 

Could you imagine a fire starting out in a place like that, it would be a huge loss of life for sure. I couldn't stand back and do nothing so if anyone thinks im wrong at least give me a good reasion why I shouldn't have reported them.

 

Many Thanks,

David

LX Services

[Jivemaster]

H&S law makes offences of commission and omission. When I had my run in with a venue it started at 1730 when the management refused to remove the rubbish stored in the fire exit corridor By event start at 1930 the promoter had photographed the situation and then cleared some of it. The photos went to the fire and licenccing authorities.

[Chris Higgs]

In my experience, you mention it to the management and if nothing happens, make a call to the local environmental health department. They, like the the HSE, aren't in the habit of closing things down, at least not permanently. They will advise, probably insist that action is taken within a specified period and ultimately issue an improvement notice. Prohibition notices are issued where imminent danger exists.

 

I disagree with Paul, you most certainly should consider taking it further.

I have found that having the bottle to do that is a great decider in how bad the problem really is. The last time I did it, the subsequent 'visit' by the EHO disclosed a whole host of things the venue hadn't attended to either, of which I knew nothing. I reported a seriously dodgy rigging job (my responsibility, being competent to assess it) and the fire escape was found to be in a state of near collapse (there not having been a fire drill, ever, so no-one had looked).

No-one lost their job, there was a progressive series of improvements and the well intentioned, hard working owners now appreciate their legal obligations. Like most people, once they understand and appreciate the reasons behind such regulations, they do something about it. It's the less obvious things like safety bonds and ladder use where they require more convincing.

The duty to your employers includes the duty to bring to their attention anything that may be regarded as a shortcoming (Management Regs) and again, if you really believe there to be an immediate danger, report it.

[Jivemaster]

Every venue that is safe to work in starts and stays that way because the management cares to keep it that way. If you do see an unsafe venue Liability WILL stick to you for continuing to do unsafe work or work in an unsafe place. Your PLI will require you to work with "Due Dilligence" so working in an unsafe manner will void your insurance.

[Neil Hampson]

Aplogies for bumping such an old thread but reading through the posts has cleared my head a little and has helped, however I have a few questions to add to the mix:

 

Background, I have been asked, as a casual technician to light a school show on a 3 hour notice (nothing new) The venue is having building works and as such one of the 3 fire escapes is now effectivley bricked up, a further exit leads into the building site, but is still a proper exit, there is a decent footpath away from the building and lighting etc. a third exit leads from the backstage area of the studio into a side street. (The loss of the exit has been approved by the inspector, but a reduction of the room capacity is stipulated I believe)

I arrived to find the back exit partially blocked by props and that the keyboard player had compltely blocked the other exit with the keyboard, amp and other kit. I raised my concerns, and was met by an attuitde of 'I have bigger things to worry about' or similar, I was told that the exit that was blocked by the keyboard was no longer a fire exit, as they had removed the signage (they have physically removed the green/white sign fron the holder) and that there was a second fire exit through the dressing rooms. I re-iterated my concern to the head of school, who commented on the blocked exits but did not follow up. Niether exit was cleared for the performance.

 

I have reported this to my manager within the school, who has requested that these items are moved, however I don't holding my breath.

 

My question is: what do I do next? I have a good reputation and relationship with the school, and I don't want to destroy this, but I am concerned about the attitude to public safety. I understand I have a duty of care to reeport such things but how far should I take this? Should I walk away? (which would solve nothing as an unexperienced person, most probably a student would end up on the gallery in charge of the technical aspects of the show) Should there be an official escalation after the Headmaster / venue manger

[paulears]

If you want the work, then I'm afraid if it was me, I'd just cover my back. If one of the bosses has a mobile, then simply text something like this "do you want me to sort the blocked fire exit we spoke about". get a delivery report. at the very least with no response, you can show you did try, and at best you'll get a reply. These kind of free you up, to leave it to these people to sort out. It won't get it cured, but bums get covered. It's horrible having to make sure you have this kind of evidence - but it would help you afterwardsif something nasty did happen. Still - at least you are aware of the problem.

[cedd]

Working in a similairly safety critical environment, though not within performance, I'll second paul's reccomendation of getting some proof of having informed them. I always use email (internal within the company), which is backed up to USB and is time and date stamped. For all of my very important safety critical ones I also print them out and keep them in a folder. You won't need to go to these extremes normally, but I have the Civil Aviation Authority to deal with!

 

What is helpful, is that as soon as you send a message like that, today's safety culture means the person on the receiving end thinks "they've told me that to cover their back, I'd better cover mine". It's what you don't say that counts sometimes!

 

State your fears, but be personable about it. You still want a job and don't want to appear as a "tell-tale", just somebody concerned about an issue they have noticed. If you are competent to provide a solution, you can suggest one, but remember if you do and it's the wrong one, the focus turns back to you. If you aren't 100% sure what to do about it, but know something needs to be done just tell them that! The onus is on them after that.

 

Sometimes though it can seem like the "blame" is just being passed around. Somebody must be at the end of the chain, if not, nothing gets done. A number of venues I turn up at have seats across a fire exit which I just move myself (if it's one or two - not a row, then they can do it!) and mention it later. Shows you're being professional whilst being flexible and a "real person".

[Superbadger]

Surely any door which has to be used in an emergency other than a main entrance door should not be able to be locked (a typical push-bar fire exit) these on the whole cannot be acessed from the outside unless you have a key (like 'front door' yale locks) but can be easily opened from the inside.

 

I have recently been helping out at my old primary school (with my sister's class production of bugsy malone) and noticed that one of the exits, now a PE cupboard was blocked with equipment and in fact several things were knocked down as the cast rushed to their possitions. I was actually quite concerned as I assumed this was the fire exit - it always used to be. Thankfully I then realised that the actual exit was next to the cupboard and therefore relatively safe. However had that exit had to be used it would not have been suitable as an exit.

 

Another thing - although slightly going off topic is the number of people who prop fire doors open - often with, ironically, fire extinguishers. This is illegal and it makes the fire door pointless. The purpose of fire doors is to contain the fire and prevent it spreading. They are purposelly designed so they won't stay shut and will make the job of fire crews much easier, Lessen the possibility of loss of life and stop so much damage from occuring.

 

On another tangent I would advise that in the home setting you always close doors at night. Your home is most at risk from fire at night and shutting doors (even if they aren't specifically fire doors) will greatly reduce the spread of the fire possibly saving your life.

 

Superbadger.

[Ynot]

Surely any door which has to be used in an emergency other than a main entrance door should not be able to be locked

Correct. There are indeed some crash-bar type doors which can be opened from outside with a key, but these can still ALWAYS be opened from inside in the normal fashion.

Another thing - although slightly going off topic is the number of people who prop fire doors open - often with, ironically, fire extinguishers. This is illegal and it makes the fire door pointless.

Again, correct. Though it's not just fire extinguishers.... One of my bugbears in our venue is the number of times I have to carry stage weights back to the stage after finding them propping open doors all over the building!

[Ike]

...the number of people who prop fire doors open - often with, ironically, fire extinguishers. This is illegal...

Says who? I'd be curious to know which law I've been breaking all this time. :D

While I certainly see what you're saying I don't see anything wrong with propping a door open while, for example, your carrying a large/heavy object through it as long as you don't prop it open then leave it unattended.

 

Surely any door which has to be used in an emergency other than a main entrance door should not be able to be locked

Correct. There are indeed some crash-bar type doors which can be opened from outside with a key, but these can still ALWAYS be opened from inside in the normal fashion.

There are lots of fire exits around that can be locked shut, think buildings with shutters for a start. Again as long as you have a system in place to ensure they are locked open while people are on the premises I can't see the problem.

[zonino]

...the number of people who prop fire doors open - often with, ironically, fire extinguishers. This is illegal...

Says who? I'd be curious to know which law I've been breaking all this time. :(

While I certainly see what you're saying I don't see anything wrong with propping a door open while, for example, your carrying a large/heavy object through it as long as you don't prop it open then leave it unattended.

 

the problem is that when a fire occurs and someone has propped the door open, their first reaction isn't "oh, I'll close the door and get out", its "argh! fire! need to get out!"

 

door gets left open, fire separation is broken, people get trapped inside and die.

 

The law relating to this, in addition to the HSW act is the Regulatory Reform Order, which requires employers to do Fire Risk Assessments. You're breaking the law because you're interfering with measures put in place to increase your safety :D as is removing fire extinguishers from their points to prop doors open.

[Ynot]

...the number of people who prop fire doors open - often with, ironically, fire extinguishers. This is illegal...

Says who? I'd be curious to know which law I've been breaking all this time. :D

Hmmm...

How about the Fire Regulations and the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1992 (as amended)?

Particularly the para at the bottom of that page which states "The law requires your employees to co-operate with you to ensure the workplace is safe from fire and its effects, and not to do anything which will place themselves or other people at risk."

 

While I certainly see what you're saying I don't see anything wrong with propping a door open while, for example, your carrying a large/heavy object through it as long as you don't prop it open then leave it unattended.

In theory, that may be coverable by an on-the-spot RA, BUT the problem is that in many cases (in my experience) on such occasions said door-props get left in place AFTER the gear has gone through - often due to laziness (which could be interpreted as negligence).

 

Sorry, Ike, but as I'm sure you'll agree, fire safety is one thing everyone should pay close attention to, and not just lip service.

 

It's hard enough in a venue like mine (and many others) where the 'staff' are all volunteers and thus it's very difficult to manage safety training, but when rules & regs are broken in this way it makes the job doubly difficult.