What happened to all the people after work?

[djw1981]

please lets not turn this into yet another anti-student thread guys... quite frankly its boring and at times far from the truth / inaccurate.

Here, Here! I don't think its fair on the hard working students who do their degree and then work hard in the industry. There is an increasing anti-student feeling on the Blue Room at the moment. Just because you have had one bad experience don't tar them all with the same brush!

 

Sam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

On the other hand, as a student (non tech-related subject) I can kinda see where some of the guys are coming from that the press is constantly going on about the average starting salary for graduates being the top side of £21k. Therefore some people will forget that this is the average and therefore 50% of people will be below it! Students are told to aim high in their careers to establish reputations etc early on, and therefore may not be wanting (note the word want not need) to start lower down and learn non college tech. I am sure many people would agree that going from being a freelance tech at uni/college to becoming a full time venue, hire company or even touring tech is a large change in work culture and responsibilities.

 

Paul

 

A small side point may be that you ask people to apply with current salaries. Many students may not have salaries, or just have their freelance rate, and we all know that for a 230 day working year (excl weekends n 4 weeks leave) you will not be paid 230 x daily freelance rate! Therefore maybe a guideline of what you think the person is worth to your company ie £14-21k depending upon skills (eg driving licence), experience and current package.

 

Perhaps also outlining how much the person might be able to do in terms of evening freelancing etc, after all if a person feels they have LD skills, they might like to keep them active, either through your company - if you do op your hires, or freelancing in evenings/weekends. Remember this is often someones first job and they may be unsure as to how the your time vs company time things can work.

 

Sam

I am not having a go, but I do feel that there is sometimes a tendency on here (as in life) for some students to go off the deep end and disregard the advice of people who have been there before them as to the problems and benefits of being venue techs, touring techs, hire techs etc.

[Andrew C]

On the other hand, as a student (non tech-related subject) I can kinda see where some of the guys are coming from that the press is constantly going on about the average starting salary for graduates being the top side of £21k. Therefore some people will forget that this is the average and therefore 50% of people will be below it! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An average salary of £21k does NOT mean 50% will be below. It is far more likely that MOST people will be a fair way below, some above and a few high fliers will be a long way above. This gives one of the other "averages" of £21k (Mode, Mean or Median; too long ago to remember which is which without thinking about it)

[V.A.]

On the other hand, as a student (non tech-related subject) I can kinda see where some of the guys are coming from that the press is constantly going on about the average starting salary for graduates being the top side of £21k. Therefore some people will forget that this is the average and therefore 50% of people will be below it! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An average salary of £21k does NOT mean 50% will be below. It is far more likely that MOST people will be a fair way below, some above and a few high fliers will be a long way above. This gives one of the other "averages" of £21k (Mode, Mean or Median; too long ago to remember which is which without thinking about it)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When people say "average", they generally mean the mean, which is what would be earned if everybody earned the same amount, irrespective of what job they were in. This could mean that they're all already on that amount, or that there is a wide variance - you would have to do some other statistical work to find which it was.

 

The median salary is the salary of the person right in the middle of the range - in that case, 50% would be below, and 50% above (well, nearly 50%...)

 

The mode is the salary which the most people earn.

[Andrew C]

When people say "average", they generally mean the mean, which is what would be earned if everybody earned the same amount, irrespective of what job they were in. This could mean that they're all already on that amount, or that there is a wide variance - you would have to do some other statistical work to find which it was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think you meant that! You mean add all the salaries and divide by the number of workers!

 

But yes, the rest stands...

I suspect that salaries plotted on a graph would produce some sort of distorted bell-curve. A few serfs, a few "fat-cats" and the rest of us somewhere in the middle! Technicians tending towards the lower part of the curve... :unsure:

 

Edit

Sorry, just re-read and understood what you wrote; take the whole salary pot and distribute evenly...

[V.A.]

When people say "average", they generally mean the mean, which is what would be earned if everybody earned the same amount, irrespective of what job they were in. This could mean that they're all already on that amount, or that there is a wide variance - you would have to do some other statistical work to find which it was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think you meant that! You mean add all the salaries and divide by the number of workers!

 

But yes, the rest stands...

 

I suspect that salaries plotted on a graph would produce some sort of distorted bell-curve. A few serfs, a few "fat-cats" and the rest of us somewhere in the middle! Technicians tending towards the lower part of the curve... :unsure:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you add all the salaries and divide by the number of workers, then you get the amount earned per person if everybody earned the same amount, and this is called the mean :D

[djw1981]

Ok, sorry its Saturday night, I meant mean. My point was that if people are told the average (media speak for mean) is £20k, they are going to aim for £20k, and forget that as Andrew C says, a large number of them will earn a lot less than £20k. Therefore until they have found that 1,3,6,12, 24 months after graduating they still cannot find a job in the field they want (in this case tech) and reconsider their position, they are unlikely to consider lesser paid jobs.

[SparkySteve]

Sam

I am not having a go, but I do feel that there is sometimes a tendency on here (as in life) for some students to go off the deep end and disregard the advice of people who have been there before them as to the problems and benefits of being venue techs, touring techs, hire techs etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And what about the students that have had the benefits of being a venue tech, touring tech, hire tech etc.? Is it fair to tarnish them with the same brush, as Sam says.

[Guest lightnix]

...one particular FE college (to remain nameless) advises students who are about to graduate from its lighting design course that they shouldn't apply for any 'assistant'-level jobs as it would be "beneath them". So from at least one college you've got a yearly crop of freshly-graduated students... who have been instructed to consider themselves "too good" for anything less than a deputy chief's position.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's very irresponsible of them :unsure: I know I've said before, that I'm glad to see the way training has developed since I got mt LAMDA diploma, but in the light of this and other recent threads I'm also concerned that the colleges are not providing the business with the people it needs and doing their students a great disservice into the bargain. There's no point in churning out designers by the score - there simply isn't the work to go around for all of them.

 

Obviously I can't comment in any great detail, because I don't know the various course contents, but there isn't a college course anywhere which will teach somebody the whole business. Two thirds probably, three quarters maybe - the rest can only be learned with a few years of experience.

 

Without wishing to sound "anti-student", I do remember what one of our visiting lecturers once said to us. IIRC it went very much like this...

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but when you leave here you will not be professionals, you will be "amateur professionals" and by that I mean trained beginners.  I don't wish to denigrate your obvious talents and abilities, but we see far too many graduates who think they know everything, when in fact they have only learnt the basics.  One day I'm sure you will know everything, but you must accept that it will take time and that there is no substitute for that time.

 

Strangely enough, most of us did accept that and benefitted accordingly.

 

A small side point may be that you ask people to apply with current salaries... maybe a guideline of what you think the person is worth to your company ie £14-21k depending upon skills (eg driving licence), experience and current package.

That's a fair point and TBH I don't think that £14-17.5k would be too far out of order, given the cost of living in London these days.

 

Perhaps also outlining how much the person might be able to do in terms of evening freelancing etc, after all if a person feels they have LD skills, they might like to keep them active, either through your company - if you do op your hires, or freelancing in evenings/weekends. Remember this is often someones first job and they may be unsure as to how the your time vs company time things can work.

Sorry, but NO! If you are employing somebody full time, then you want somebody who is going to be dedicated to the job and the company full time, not somebody who is always going to be looking for opportunities to sneak off and moonlight elsewhere.

[djw1981]

Lightnix

 

I take your point about £14-17.5k expectations - I just used 14-21k as an example using a range. My point re working hours was also connected to the fact that some students may not know what sort of hours they would be expected to work in a hire type job. The freelance opportunities bit was based upon the experience of techs I know in similar jobs and the way their relationships with their employers works. These are, upon reflection, relationships built up over several years and which involve hire of the employers kit and therefore they are happy with that arrangement.

[jagardner1984]

As a student, who will (with any luck) be graduating about a year from now, I have been reading this thread with interest.

 

I don't think it is fair to suggest, as is implied by some posts, that all students are not interested in doing a particular job because of the job title, or if it sounds too much like hard work. Many students come from the industry to learn some more about their trade, specifically because they hope it will advance their careers. Others come with little or no experience, with the hope of leaving into the industry walking rather than crawling.

 

BUT

 

This thread is very interesting because there are undoubtedly some students who would not consider a job titled - "Technician" because they feel it looks very non-descript on their CV. In addition, I think we all make value judgements when we are reading adverts in the Stage, online, etc. We often do this based on the wording of the advert. An advert titled "Technician" at a small-ish community centre type venue, might actually entail the role of a Production Manager, there being only one member of staff - so the management of the venue would fall to the "Technician". The salary might be OK, and the experience could be invaluable ... but it does not look nearly as attractive as "Assistant Electrician" - Sheffield Theatres or whatever, that gives that person a specific, industry recognised role (Assistant Electrician) in a venue widely known in the industry.

 

The reason I chose my course was because it is a broad course, which will give me a DIVERSITY of experience, that experience is what I look to take into my career. I have issues with undergraduate Design courses, as I think a lot of it is about life experience and maturity, rather than pure technical/artistic knowledge.

 

James

[gareth]

And what about the students that have had the benefits of being a venue tech, touring tech, hire tech etc.?  Is it fair to tarnish them with the same brush, as Sam says.

No, it isn't. But I think you'd have to admit that 'fresh' graduates with that sort of industry experience are not exactly commonplace. They certainly exist - perhaps someone who's been working in the industry for a year or two, and who decides to take a course in order to consolidate and expand their existing knowledge and get some sort of official ceritifcation. But I certainly wouldn't say that someone who's gone straight from sixth form into, say, a BTEC diploma in technical theatre and emerges fresh out of college two years later with a certificate and perhaps the odd bit of cassie work at the local theatre under their belt could legitimately describe themselves as 'experienced' to the extent that they should be ruling themselves out of applying for bottom-of-the-ladder jobs in the business.

 

My intention wasn't to engage in some sort of general 'student-bashing' esercise - we all know that graduates in technical theatre, as in any other discipline, can range from the splendidly competent to the frighteningly incompetent, and everything in between. Most of us who have worked in the theatre business for any length of time have had experiences, good and bad, of students/graduates from both ends of that range - the good, the bad and the ugly, indeed! I was just mentioning one particular example, loosely relating to the topic in question, of a college 'brainwashing' their students into believeing that they're 'too good' to work their way up the ladder by beginning at the bottom rung, and how this might have some bearing on the problem that Paul's having in finding someone who fits the bill to fill his vacant position.

[Paul J Need]

Well, well,well............. what a lot of posts while I;ve been out in the sun rigging and focusing the Tempest.

 

I do admit the "job description" was a little vague. This was my intention. I could have said the role involves:

 

-1- Customer contact and liason

-2- Customer care

-3- Admin

-4- Sales order processing

-5- Purchase order processing

-6- A bit of driving

-7- A bit of equipment prep

-8- A bit of equipment repair

-9- Lighting design

-10 Lighting re-lights

-11- Technical operator - sound - lighting - AV

-12- Technical co-ordination

-13- Making the tea

-14- Having tea made for you

-15- blah blah....................

 

As the description states.. general assistant. General as is wide variety of work and projects; assistant as is assisting to run a lighting and sound company.

 

Salary would be in the region of £15-25,000 depending on level of experience and knowledge and skill to be brought in to 10outof10.

 

So far we have had one application from a local lad who is coming in for two weeks work experience. His first job on Monday helping rigging and focusing of a product launch for Marks and Spencers. If he does well.. he may find himself in a position in 2-3 years time as a full time member of staff, who knows. He sees nothing wrong with working from the bottom I guess? :unsure:

 

I'M AFRAID the dig by others at students is a valid one. A great number write to me on a regular basis. Straight out of college sending out beautifully printed CV's and laminated business cards : A.N OTHER (Lighting designer) ( Not even lighting designer / Production electrician!) Get real! Unless you happen to have a sister/mother/father/uncle/best friend who is a director...............

 

Interviews commence on Monday. Regrettably, not a single Blue-roomer coming thus far. (Unless there are lots of e-mails waiting for me tomorrow at the office)

[benge]

Hi

 

I would have loved that job....... but it has come 2 years too early for me.

 

Ben

[JimWebber]

Paul,

 

I too would have loved to apply for the position, unfortunately, I have domestic commitments here in the South, and if I were to quit my job, for a three month contract in London, I would end up divorced, sharpish.....

 

I guess that people's excuses do not help you fill a position though...

 

Many people have complained your post has occured too early, for me it is too late!

 

...one particular FE college (to remain nameless) advises students who are about to graduate from its lighting design course that they shouldn't apply for any 'assistant'-level jobs as it would be "beneath them". So from at least one college you've got a yearly crop of freshly-graduated students... who have been instructed to consider themselves "too good" for anything less than a deputy chief's position.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can agree, many students these days, are leaving university with a degree in "Ancient pottery from the west coast of Scotland", or some other useful degree, and have absolutely no interest in starting from the bottom, as it is "Beneath Them" I started my apprenticeship, as the lowest of the low, and over the years, have gained far more experience and skills, then a graduate that can tell you the square root of the hypotenuse of a jam jar lid, but not know what way to unscrew it...

 

 

---PEDANTS BEWARE--- I know that a jam jar lid does not have a hypotenuse

[Guest lightnix]

...if I were to quit my job, for a three month contract in London, I would end up divorced, sharpish.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unless I've read it wrong, the three months is a probationary period, to make sure you fit in. This is a common practice.

 

A couple of other thoughts...

 

You may find that an older applicant would be well-suited to the job. Maybe somebody in their late 40s / early 50s whose kids have left home and whose mortgage is paid off. There are many whose "Glory Days" may have past, but still have plenty to offer in terms of hard work and who know how to behave on site in front of clients. Another advantage with such candidates is that they are more likely to be long term stayers, who can offer a good ten or fifteen years of solid service, rather than be looking for a stepping stone to build their career and naff off after just two or three.

 

How about an Eastern European candidate? I heard an employer talking on 'phone-in recently, who said he far preferred taking on people from that part of the world. Not just because he regarded them as cheap labour (in fact he was happy to pay the going rate), but because he found that they had a far better attitude to work. In his experience they were more attentive, more productive, keener to learn and didn't expect to be able to swan in late on a Monday or skive off early on a Friday.