Cheap(ish) Amps for Install

[ABB125]

I've "accidentally" ended up being in charge of a minor tech refurbishment of a small venue (a student bar). Management want to re-start live event nights, as used to happen pre-covid.

The venue currently has a reasonably decent set of speakers (I think they're Bose FS4SE, but will check properly tomorrow; 160W peak, 8ohm), 16 in total wired in pairs. These are spread all around the room, with zero delay (so probably a few phasing issues!). (There's also a single EB MT2 sub in a slightly odd position. I'm working on supplementing this, but that's separate from the main point of this thread.) There are notionally 5 separate zones I think, and a couple of other oddities (channel L is played downstairs, channel R upstairs for example). All inputs go into a Behringer rack mixer, then into a 2 to 6 DSP, then amps.

The amp rack needs new amps. Currently, 12 speakers are powered using 3 dodgy, unknown-brand 2ch amps. The other 4 run off a single MacroTech 2400 channel (interesting choice (2ohm), given the age of the amp, and the fact that the other channel is unused...). (The sub runs off another MacroTech 2400.) My plan is to replace all the HF amps: options are things like Thomann t.amp E4-250, or Crown XLS 1002 as a slightly more expensive option. I don't need DSP amps, but there's not much harm in having them if the price is right.

Does anyone have any experience with amps in this price bracket? Is there actually any difference between the different brands, or are they the exact same with a different badge? Any to steer clear of? Are those which claim to be 2ohm stable actually actually usable at that load? (I'm planning to stay at 4ohm minimum load, in order to retain more zonal capability.) Is it worth going for a 2ohm amp if its always going to be used at 4ohm? I don't mind if I used a pair of 4ch amps, or four 2ch amps, there's enough space for either option - is there a generally preferred approach to this?

Thanks very much

[J Pearce]

If you're dealing with a zoned system then it's worth looking at Cloud Electronics - it's their speciality.
They have multichannel rack amps, which are designed to sit forgotten about in a hidden rack and just keep doing their thing. The amps have no controls on the front so can't be fiddled with. The amps use phoenix connectors rather than Neutrik, which can also help keep costs down.

[ABB125]

14 hours ago, J Pearce said:

If you're dealing with a zoned system then it's worth looking at Cloud Electronics - it's their speciality.
They have multichannel rack amps, which are designed to sit forgotten about in a hidden rack and just keep doing their thing. The amps have no controls on the front so can't be fiddled with. The amps use phoenix connectors rather than Neutrik, which can also help keep costs down.

Thanks - I've had a quick look, but I don't think that'll work out due to cost, and power output: turns out the speakers are actually QSC I82H, 240W RMS at 8ohm, so somewhat more demanding than the Bose I thought they were! Plus the zones aren't particularly important, more a nice to have.

[ANDYLASER]

Might be worthwhile getting the Macrotechs serviced and repaired. No reason they wont do another 20 years service.

Edited August 19 by ANDYLASER

[kerry davies]

I used to DJ in a pub with umpteen zones and speakers everywhere. The sound was appalling until I played everything in mono. It was stunningly better at a stroke when the left and right channels were not "competing". There were parts of the pub that had only got LEFT and others that only got RIGHT until I hit the mono switch on my CD decks.

[adamburgess]

What is wrong with the amps currently installed?

If they 'work', would a little bit trouble-shooting help? Too many running from one channel? Are the speakers ok?

If they're being overdriven, you MAY need some DSP. Live is different to DJ/BGM stuff if that was what was spec'ed initially?

[TomHoward]

So I would agree with above, that if you aren't replacing the speakers etc or overhauling the whole system, why replace the amps if they aren't working, or they aren't specifically identified as a weak link?

I haven't used the E4-250 but we have used the E400 and E800 in installation and found them to be solid, we have rooms they have been running 24/7/365 for over a decade and they're still going.
The only problem we've had with one of the old ones was the Standby, where it shuts down when no input signal was present. When it was used for Powerpoint presentations, when there is 20 mins of silence then a video plays, the amp wouldn't wake up for what felt like 10 seconds and the first bit of the audio from the video was lost. This wasn't a problem with the amp, just the feature didn't work for us - the current model of the amp has an option to switch this off though - the early ones didn't, this behaviour was fixed so we had to bypass it inside the amps.

We use QSC GX3 as a step up from that which is a similar price point to Crown XLS1002 only no DSP / screen to break - but as at the start, I wouldn't replace for the sake of it. Sort the grouping out so each area has at least some L and some R or reuse the existing amps if they're not giving trouble.

 

[ABB125]

16 hours ago, TomHoward said:

So I would agree with above, that if you aren't replacing the speakers etc or overhauling the whole system, why replace the amps if they aren't working, or they aren't specifically identified as a weak link?

I haven't used the E4-250 but we have used the E400 and E800 in installation and found them to be solid, we have rooms they have been running 24/7/365 for over a decade and they're still going.
The only problem we've had with one of the old ones was the Standby, where it shuts down when no input signal was present. When it was used for Powerpoint presentations, when there is 20 mins of silence then a video plays, the amp wouldn't wake up for what felt like 10 seconds and the first bit of the audio from the video was lost. This wasn't a problem with the amp, just the feature didn't work for us - the current model of the amp has an option to switch this off though - the early ones didn't, this behaviour was fixed so we had to bypass it inside the amps.

We use QSC GX3 as a step up from that which is a similar price point to Crown XLS1002 only no DSP / screen to break - but as at the start, I wouldn't replace for the sake of it. Sort the grouping out so each area has at least some L and some R or reuse the existing amps if they're not giving trouble.

 

Thanks - that's very helpful. As the speakers are slightly more powerful than I originally thought, it would have to be the t.amp E-1200 or TSA 2200 (slightly overpowered), or TSA 4-700; or, QSC GX5 or Crown XLi 2500/XLS 2502 as a mid-range option. QSC RMX-2450a is a more expensive option, but almost certainly out of budget... Do you happen to know what the difference is between Thomann's E and TSA series amps is?

I'm not sure what the problem is with the existing amps, only one channel on one of the 3 non-MacroTechs is working. Both channels in the sub MacroTech (which I'm not planning on changing at the moment) appear to be working, whilst the HF MacroTech only has one channel working. There may be some other random amps in storage somewhere in the venue, but no guarantee that they work. There is some money available to spend, and to me the most logical thing to spend it on is some new amps (especially as there's only a few weeks available to do the work in).

[sunray]

6 hours ago, ABB125 said:

Thanks - that's very helpful. As the speakers are slightly more powerful than I originally thought, it would have to be the t.amp E-1200 or TSA 2200 (slightly overpowered), or TSA 4-700; or, QSC GX5 or Crown XLi 2500/XLS 2502 as a mid-range option. QSC RMX-2450a is a more expensive option, but almost certainly out of budget... Do you happen to know what the difference is between Thomann's E and TSA series amps is?

I'm not sure what the problem is with the existing amps, only one channel on one of the 3 non-MacroTechs is working. Both channels in the sub MacroTech (which I'm not planning on changing at the moment) appear to be working, whilst the HF MacroTech only has one channel working. There may be some other random amps in storage somewhere in the venue, but no guarantee that they work. There is some money available to spend, and to me the most logical thing to spend it on is some new amps (especially as there's only a few weeks available to do the work in).

As there seems to be so many failed amps I'd ensure the speakers and wiring are in good order.

[TomHoward]

No idea on the TSA amps I am afraid but we have found the E series robust.

You only need that extra power if you need the extra volume of course… don’t want to be ragging the amps into distortion but the speaker rating relates to max obviously.

Reterminating and sorting the wiring properly, checking for any shorts etc sounds like a priority. 

[ANDYLASER]

I believe the Thomann TSA amps use a switch mode PSU, where as the E series use a linear transformer PSU.

[KevinE]

If you're going with Thomann I would recommend the Behringer EP series, EP2000 or EP4000 (available elsewhere of course, usually dearer). They are a faithful copy of the QSC RMX series and are well proven. They're also quite happy to stay powered up all day on background duty without any high frequency SMPSU's fizzing away unloaded and drying out their capacitors.

I would stay away from the crown XLi, you're only paying for the name on the front and there are better things out there at the price. Best budget crown is the XTi series, made with care in the VTech factory.

Most QSC stuff is well made, but not the cheapest. 

Citronic is AVSL's (Skytronics) pro brand and the PLX series are a decent enough for the price.

Studiomaster AX series same as above.

Do make sure there's an effective limiter inbetween the mixer and the amp rack if you dont want to be changing speaker drivers all the time. Formula Sound AVC2 is the best and the industry standard for good reason, but there are others. 

 

Edited August 24 by KevinE

[ABB125]

17 minutes ago, KevinE said:

If you're going with Thomann I would recommend the Behringer EP series, EP2000 or EP4000 (available elsewhere of course, usually dearer). They are a faithful copy of the QSC RMX series and are well proven. They're also quite happy to stay powered up all day on background duty without any high frequency SMPSU's fizzing away unloaded and drying out their capacitors.

I would stay away from the crown XLi, you're only paying for the name on the front and there are better things out there at the price. Best budget crown is the XTi series, made with care in the VTech factory.

Most QSC stuff is well made, but not the cheapest. 

Citronic is AVSL's (Skytronics) pro brand and the PLX series are a decent enough for the price.

Studiomaster AX series same as above.

Do make sure there's an effective limiter inbetween the mixer and the amp rack if you dont want to be changing speaker drivers all the time. Formula Sound AVC2 is the best and the industry standard for good reason, but there are others. 

 

Thanks - I've read a few reviews suggesting the Behringer EP should be avoided; is this something you'd disagree with then?

And you recommended avoiding anything with an SMPS for venue install? (Ie: don't get class D amps?)

[themadhippy]

Quote

And you recommended avoiding anything with an SMPS for venue install?

doing that wipes sevral respected  makes off  the list

[KevinE]

Quote

And you recommended avoiding anything with an SMPS for venue install?

at the bottom of the market, yes. An amplifier with SMPSU is not something that works reliably when corners are cut.

'Well Respected' amplifier manufacturers with SMPSU's such as MC2, Powersoft, Crest, Peavey, Linea Research etc do not fall into the topic's requirement for a 'cheapish' amp.