Induction loop advice

[knightdan65]

Hi all,

I have just started as tech manager for a small theatre (150 seats) and have been asked to sort out a replacement for its tired and unpredictable old induction loop system. Though I’m familiar with the basic concept of them as far as signal processing is concerned, I’ve not actually dealt with them before and wouldn’t know where to start in terms of going shopping for one. So my questions are:

 

- anything specific I should be looking for or avoiding in a new system spec?

- recommendations on specific systems?

- recommendations on reputable suppliers/installers?

- what kind of maintenance do they require?

- what should I expect to pay for an installed system?

some info on the venue for context: 

the room is about 72m2 with a performance area about 48m2. There are mezzanines running parallel to the performance area on either side of it at a height of approx 3m (the level at which a person’s feet would be). I’m imagining only the main performance area would need to be looped. 

it is usually set up in end on or thrust configuration but is occasionally used in round and traverse. 

management have secured 6k funding so far, and are working on raising about the same amount again. Don’t have a timeframe on this currently. 

Any input gratefully received.

[john-sp]

I would advise contacting Ampetronic (www.ampetronic.com) and talking to their support team. They are very helpful, extremely knowledgeable and can advise on the best solution for your space and requirements. They will even design you a system - at a cost of course!

[Robin D]

Speak to your local Deaf Society or similar and seek advice particularly about venues that work well and those that don't. Then speak to the good ones and find out who installed it. I wish I had done so. It took three attempts (and about five years) to get the one in our new build village hall working properly. We were reassured that the original sparky's were experts. Lots of complaints from the day after opening the hall. Then the sound system installer had a go; still lots of moans and groans. Eventually contacted the Deaf Society who put us onto a real expert. Turned out the installed cable type was completely the wrong type down one side of the building and we had to have it replaced which was much more difficult than it would have been while the build was going on. 

We were told that there are many supposed experts, but very few who really are. 

Our loop is on whenever the hall is occupied and there is a ceiling mounted microphone running the whole time which is fine until someone wants to reverse the layout of the hall and put the presented at the other end. 😞

The other thing to note is that it's quite easy to audibly overload it if feeding in from a mixer etc. The installed system for films is fine, it's if we install a PA for something else. We bought a loop receiver for testing purposes that has proved very helpful but remember to remove the batteries as it only get used if we get a complaint or are feeding in from another system.   

Good luck. 

[richb]

Having recently replaced a loop system in a West End venue, we opted for a Sennheiser EK2020-11 system. Bit over your budget, but not far, depending on how many receivers you buy. It has been robust, and well like by patrons. It's Digital RF, rather than induction loop, so patrons wear earphones (theirs or the venues). but you can buy an adaptor for T coil hearing aids.

It's a versatile system, and we use it for both assistive listening and audio description (here), allowing both (or either) to be selected by the user.

HTH

[sandall]

2 hours ago, john-sp said:

I would advise contacting Ampetronic (www.ampetronic.com) and talking to their support team. They are very helpful, extremely knowledgeable and can advise on the best solution for your space and requirements. They will even design you a system - at a cost of course!

Would definitely agree. I've no experience of their newer kit, but their older amps last for ever.

[sunray]

3 hours ago, sandall said:

Would definitely agree. I've no experience of their newer kit, but their older amps last for ever.

I worked for an AV installer 1995-2002 and they were the only company we'd deal with, if the spec was for a different brand we'd propose Ampertronic and if rejected we'd walk. We did a number of Senheiser 1015 IR radiators systems and I've seen loads of them elsewhere but we found they created lots of feedback and follow-up visits. One only has to look on Ebay to see how many are being decommissioned.

[sandall]

No problem with the Sennheiser radiators, but the headsets aren't very robust & the chargers are a pain (are probably ok if looked after by Sound, rather than FoH)

[sunray]

1 minute ago, sandall said:

No problem with the Sennheiser radiators, but the headsets aren't very robust & the chargers are a pain (are probably ok if looked after by Sound, rather than FoH)

We used to find there was a lot of reposioning of the radiators, especially in raked theatres where they had to be really high to penetrate down behind seating. And yes the receivers were forever getting broken especially the AFILS adapters.

[knightdan65]

Thanks all. Ampetronic is a name I have a vague awareness of, so good to know they are highly thought of. Sounds like they are the first port of call. The current setup is a Sennheiser radiator system, which everyone at the venue seems to dislike. It may well be that positioning is the issue but the CEO is hard of hearing and has her heart set on an induction loop, so that’s that!

cheers 👍

[richb]

Understand that your mind's made up, but just going to respond for the benefit any anybody else searching for this is the future.

The Sennheiser system that I was recommending was not an IR Radiator system, but digital RF, and has been bullet proof to date, and robust enough for use by FOH. We looked at all options side by side, and it was a clear winner, particularly in terms of flexibility to integrate with other access requirements.

[timsabre]

Also bear in mind that an induction loop system can introduce electrical issues  - notably interference/breakup in long video cables when there is a loud sound, and pickup/weird feedback problems in audio equipment (particularly unbalanced mics, guitars etc).

(I have spent too much of my life chasing down weird problems caused by induction loop systems)

[neilalexrose]

23 hours ago, knightdan65 said:

Thanks all. Ampetronic is a name I have a vague awareness of, so good to know they are highly thought of. Sounds like they are the first port of call. The current setup is a Sennheiser radiator system, which everyone at the venue seems to dislike. It may well be that positioning is the issue but the CEO is hard of hearing and has her heart set on an induction loop, so that’s that!

cheers 👍

Make both systems work - infra-red and induction loop.  We have both systems installed in 2 venues (1300 and 300 seats), and give out IR headsets for every show and event. We have no idea how many people use the loop (as they dont need to tell us unless they have problems) but we have a lot of audience who don’t have or use hearing aids, but are beginning to loose their hearing so they take the IR headsets instead (particulary at the interval where they complain to FOh staff about cast audibility).  We produce a specific mix for hearing assistance users, which is a mix of radiomic’d vocals from the desk where possible, mixed in with ambient mics that duck down when the desk mix is running.

There is then a back up for the occasions where we have bands with guitars on stage, and have to switch off the induction loop due to pickups picking up the loop and causing interference or feedback.

Our audio description service (and live language translation where appropriate) transmits on the 2nd IR channel.

Worth noting that the sennheiser IR range is discontinued, but there are cross compatable products available (Williams AV.)

(had we not just made a significant investment in updating our IR kit, we would have looked more closely at the sennheiser RF kit. Definitely worth a serious look.)

As has been said Ampetronic are the leaders in hearing assistance products, and will be very happy to visit, recommend kit to use, and design an induction loop for your venue.  They will then recommend an installer for you to use (that will have been trained by them).  
We were having issues with our 10 year old install, left in a bit of a mess in places by the original contractors, which was investigsted and rectified by one of Ampetronics affiliated installers.

 

neil

[sunray]

Something else to note:

Not all hearing aids have a T setting and that seems to be getting more common.

Edited August 15 by sunray

[Simon Lewis]

I think most of the points have been made, but would just highlight that end users still tend to prefer loop systems - as these typically offer easy access to the ALS without having  to obtain a working receiver unit (and remember to return it).

IR systems are tending to fall out of favour now that Sennheiser have dropped them. They are still available though.
The Sennheiser FM system is good (although they refer to this as a Tour Guide system, not an ALS... arguably they might not be seen as suitable for VAT exemption under aids for the disabled!). It's possible to use several transmitters as the receivers can be tuned to different frequencies, should there be a need for assisted listening plus translation or audio description.

Induction loop is a great technology as far as the user goes, but it would be worth seeing if a test loop can be set up to determine a) if there's issues with building steel or background EM noise and b) any issues with loop bleed /  interference with existing technical systems.

There are two other technologies:

Audio over IP - at present this can be quite pricy and my experience of it is that the latency is far too long. The latency can depend upon the type of mobile phone used to receive the wifi signal.

Auracast - this is just coming to market and is needing a) the hardware (which Ampetronic are just releasing) and b) aids fitted with Auracast Bluetooth chips (taking a bit of time and arguably it'll be a decade before there's a reasonable changeover). In the meantime, it may have to be provided receivers for anyone wanting to use this system.

I agree that the FM route is attractive (although pricy as the receivers aren't cheap) but the loop is a great choice for users as long as it doesn't cause problems elsewhere...

[Simon Lewis]

6 minutes ago, sunray said:

Something else to note:

Not all hearing aids have a T setting and that seems to be getting more common.

All NHS aids still have them fitted.
Private aids may not, particularly if they're "in the ear".

Not all aids with telecoils have them activated.

Telecoils are still useful even if not used with a building induction loop - receivers for IR, FM and even Auracast (if the aid doesn't have it built in, as the vast majority won't ) still need the telecoil to pick up signal from a neckloop.