CHAUVET GEYSER RGB PUMP ISSUE

[partyanimallighting]

Hi Wizards, I've been poking around in an old Chauvet Geyser RGB (one of two) that has no output. I've had these units stored for some time because of failure (very problematic units) and I've decided to poke around and see if I can get them functional again. The original issue was clogged or burnt out heaters but I've successfully sourced new compatible vertical heater blocks but I can't get the pump to function on the unit I'm trying to fix. This particular model seems to be prone to problems because of what I would call "overbuild". The unit is simple enough, a heater, a pump, an RGB LED plate and a motherboard which controls the pump along with the relevant LED drivers. The first issue is the fluid lines. There are two lines, one is the pump feed and the other connects to a solenoid valve which seems to feed back-pressure from the heater back into a fluid line into the bottle. These two lines feed into some sort of aluminum junction block and this block clogs very easily. Then there's a optical sensor on the fluid line which also shuts down the machine sometimes. I'm considering doing away with the aluminum block and solenoid valve and using one line alone, pump to heater. I can also bypass the optical sensor by bridging the solder points on that small PCB. The unit works either with a wireless remote (can't find it) and via DMX and I'm getting LED control via DMX but no pump output (this is with the entire unit disassembled and spread out on the workbench). Everything is connected as it should, pump to pump output, heater output to heater, LED plate to harness etc. However, when the pump is activated there is no pump output and LED1 and LED3 lights and when I pull down the pump channel, there's an audible relay click and LED4 lights. I really would not mind dumping the two units and I really would not mind getting them working again.....once I can resolve these problems. I'm hoping someone in this forum is familiar with these units and can offer some advice.

[timsabre]

The optical sensor is for fluid out detection. It won't pump if it thinks there is no fluid.

I am not sure what the solenoid assembly is for, maybe something to do with purging unused fluid from the block? There are some complications with the vertical firing design which is more prone to clogging due to residue collecting in the bottom of the block, and it is probably something to do with that.

When you say "no pump output" how are you measuring that?

It looks like the relay controls the solenoid valve and the pump is triac controlled (as you'd probably expect since this unit has variable output)

[partyanimallighting]

Hi timsabre, the optical sensor is easily bypassed and I did that as can be seen in the second picture. I've done this to my Chauvet Hurricane 1600's which also use this type of optical sensor type PCB to detect low fluid. In those units it's a common problem for the units low fluid LED to suddenly flash BLUE and basically shut down so bypassing these sensors and self-monitoring fluid levels is a far easier solution for me rather than having a unit suddenly quit on me, giving me the problem of having to prime the fluid line to get it up and running again. As you said, I also believe the solenoid system is for purging fluid or relieving fluid pump pressure from the line but I'm not sure. As it is, these solenoids are also prone to failure and thus cause shutdowns of the machine for some reason. I haven't "measured" the pump output with a meter. As I mentioned, the entire unit is disassembled so the actual pump is connected to the motherboard outputs and on triggering via DMX, the pump should activate but the pump does not fire. As I mentioned, on DMX trigger, LED1 and LED4 lights up on the motherboard and when the DMX channel is pulled to 0, there's an audible click from the relay and LED4 lights up so there is some function from the motherboard but I'm not sure if the pump's triac has failed. This is the first time I'm poking around inside this motherboard so I'm not too sure how it actually functions as per triggering of the pump. My goal here is to ultimately bypass the optical sensor, solenoid switch and the aluminum junction box and reroute a new copper line from the pump to the heater block and have the unit functioning as basic as possible.

[sunray]

I worked on one of these a little while back, I seem to recall the variable speed pump was an unusual electrical config, something like a series diode (half wave rectified??) or a series inductor, I'm pretty sure it was this machines pump that didn't pump on pure mains, just made lots of loud buzzing. I hope I'm not barking up the wrong tree as I worked on several different smoke and a couple of snow machines in very quick succession.

[partyanimallighting]

Hi sunray, the pump that I have hooked up to the motherboard at this time is not the original 55DCB but is actually a test 55DCB pump that I use regularly and this pump works fine on pure mains. I normally just test it for a millisecond....once I power it up and it buzzes I cut power immediately to avoid damage as these depend on fluid flow for lubrication and cooling. Unfortunately I'm not getting anything via the DMX control. I do see the signal LEDs light up on the motherboard when DMX signal is applied....but no pump output. Also the RGB diode plate functions just fine via DMX so it's not a DMX control issue. The pump you mentioned that made the buzzing noise, most times in these cases I've encountered, it may be a broken spring on the pump shaft or a bad armature. I normally have lots of spare springs, O-rings and old armatures put aside for easy swapping out. Just recently I encountered a machine that heated up fine but once the pump was activated, the breaker tripped. I tore apart the pump and there was a broken spring but the real issue was the armature. When the the armature was connected to pure mains, the breaker immediately tripped. Repairing this pump was a simple case of replacing the spring and O-rings and installing a new (read used but working) armature. These pumps have a diode built in across the power input terminals and I'm assuming that the diode in this particular pump was shorted, hence the tripping breaker scenario.

[sunray]

10 hours ago, partyanimallighting said:

Hi sunray, the pump that I have hooked up to the motherboard at this time is not the original 55DCB but is actually a test 55DCB pump that I use regularly and this pump works fine on pure mains. I normally just test it for a millisecond....once I power it up and it buzzes I cut power immediately to avoid damage as these depend on fluid flow for lubrication and cooling. Unfortunately I'm not getting anything via the DMX control. I do see the signal LEDs light up on the motherboard when DMX signal is applied....but no pump output. Also the RGB diode plate functions just fine via DMX so it's not a DMX control issue. The pump you mentioned that made the buzzing noise, most times in these cases I've encountered, it may be a broken spring on the pump shaft or a bad armature. I normally have lots of spare springs, O-rings and old armatures put aside for easy swapping out. Just recently I encountered a machine that heated up fine but once the pump was activated, the breaker tripped. I tore apart the pump and there was a broken spring but the real issue was the armature. When the the armature was connected to pure mains, the breaker immediately tripped. Repairing this pump was a simple case of replacing the spring and O-rings and installing a new (read used but working) armature. These pumps have a diode built in across the power input terminals and I'm assuming that the diode in this particular pump was shorted, hence the tripping breaker scenario.

Good, you're well ahead of me on this. On the one I fixed it was a board component, I never touched anything to do with the plumbing side of things on any of the smokers except one whose heater was shorted to the metal body.

[timsabre]

I would say from your photos that LED3 is the pump fire signal into the optoisolator and LED4 is the fluid purge signal. So it looks like it's trying to run the pump. I would try changing the pump triac.

[partyanimallighting]

Hi timsabre, I'll replace the triac and post what happens. I do have a question however. BTA16 seems to be a somewhat high amperage triac for driving a 48W pump so I don't think that's this triac's sole purpose. I would have thought a 06 or 08 would suffice but with my limited knowledge of circuits....I have to ask the question. Concerning that solenoid arrangement, I applied pure mains to the Uni-D UZ-A-08 solenoid and there is no audible click so I believe that it's burnt out/non-functional/dead. Could this affect the functionality of the pump via circuitry on the motherboard? I would think not as  I think these units are designed to output a puff of fog similar to a CO2 jet and then cut off so it's my thinking that's where the solenoid comes into play, by opening when the pump cuts off to reduce fluid pressure in the line. This way when the pump is cut, the pressurized fluid in the line is pushed through the solenoid when it opens and this excess fluid under back-pressure flows back into the reservoir bottle. That would prevent those occasional puffs of fog that happens randomly with regular fog machines.   ..........I think..........  As it is this is just another feature that I would think is unnecessary and if I could bypass it completely that would be great.

[timsabre]

The pump is quite inductive which causes spiky current, this will be the reason for having an over-rated triac. 

[partyanimallighting]

Thanks timsabre. That clears that up for me.

 

[sunray]

1 hour ago, timsabre said:

The pump is quite inductive which causes spiky current, this will be the reason for having an over-rated triac. 

Reminds me of R/C 10th scale racing cars, the speed controllers consisted of a row of high powertransistors or FETS, both high current and high voltage. Some of the motors consisted of just a few turns of very thick wire, quite often 4 or 5 strands of 16 SWG rather than 6 or 8G to get the A/T figure up. the back emf when reversing rapidly is massive, many hundreds of volts for a split second followed by dozens of amps dumped into the battery. I repaired/upgraded loads in the 3 or 4 years I was involved.

 

When doing mobile disco work the smallest triac I'd stock was BTA20, even for a sound to light unit running a couple of 150W par 38's. For a start, the price difference made it silly to use anything smaller especially when buying quantities.

[partyanimallighting]

sunray, based on what you're saying here about the triacs (based on my limited knowledge of electronics), is it safe to assume that any voltage triac can be replaced with a triac of a higher value? For instance, a BTA06 can safely be replaced with a BTA 08 or a BTA12? Would this cause any problems down the line if the unit can now handle a higher load (even though I would assume it would only draw what was needed)? In the case of those cheap portable 4 channel dimmer packs, these normally can handle 4 500 ~ 750W lamps but if the (let's assume) BTA12's are replaced with BTA16's would the ability to handle larger loads not cause issues/burnouts at the receptacles and wiring/overheating/blown fuses? In the case of the dimmer, with the ability to handle larger loads would come the stupid assumption that the circuit can be overloaded and thus create problems. In other types of circuits, such as this fog machine motherboard, I would assume that, despite the larger value of the replacement triac, only the required load would be drawn. Just seeking knowledge here......

[timsabre]

You can use a higher rating until they get physically bigger and won't fit. It's just an electronic switch. 

You can be sure that in the original design they'll have designed it to use the lowest part that will work reliably, to keep the cost down. 

Edited August 9 by timsabre

[partyanimallighting]

timsabre....understood 👌

[partyanimallighting]

Update. I replaced the BTA16 600 with a new triac (same value) and heated up and tested but the result was the same. LED3 lights up when the DMX channel is activated but the pump is not triggered. When the DMX channel is pulled down there's an audible relay click and LED4 lights then cuts off. I tested voltages at the pump terminals and it's 120VAC constant and also when the DMX channel is activated. When the DMX value is set to 0, the relay clicks, the voltage drops to 0 and then voltage goes back to 120VAC. I'll put some DC to the relay and see if it's functional but there is an audible click. Now, not knowing exactly how the pump switches on and off via the triac, I do have a question. There's 120VAC at the pump terminals at all times, except when the DMX value is set to 0 when it drops out briefly. Why does the pump not activate constantly via the 120VAC reading that I'm getting at the pump terminals? Is it that the triac or the relay closes the circuit? Similar to how bi-metal thermostats in cheapo fog machines cut voltage to the heater and then activate the pump?