Has anyone sussed out how buying from the EU will work?

[Brian]

There is no consensus or definitive answer yet as to whether the CE & other EU safety criteria / standards / legislation will be respected in the UK or if the new UK equivalent legislation with differ significantly...

 

I don't see much changing on the standards front, certainly in so far as those that affect us.

 

All BS EN 6xxxxx standards, which deal with most things electric, are actually CEN editions of IEC standards. The IEC is an international body; CEN, whilst European, has members from outside the EU, eg Turkey and Switzerland. It is highly likely that most 'technical' standards will continue as they are at the moment.

 

I think that the UK is already a member of CEN in its own right.

 

CEN is also an independent organisation that is recognised by the EU, along with a couple of others, as the appropriate standards body for Europe.

 

It would be commercial suicide for the UK to diverge. UK based manufacturers would still have to comply with standards laid out in other countries simply to be able to export. No-one is going to run a dual, different, set of standards.

 

Likewise, CENELEC and ETSI deal with some areas of standards. Wikipedia says this about CENELEC..."Although CENELEC works closely with the European Union, it is not an EU institution. Nevertheless, its standards are "EN" EU (and EEA) standards, thanks to EU Regulation 1025/2012." The same goes for CEN.

 

Where standards do differ it is likely to more in more 'niche' areas like food and agriculture.

[Stuart91]

Where standards do differ it is likely to more in more 'niche' areas like food and agriculture.

 

Up until about a decade or so ago, UK standards for trailer and caravan sizes were different from the EU. It was apparently something that the UK had opted out of at the time of the Maastricht treaty, when many other standards were converging.

 

The UK law was changed partly because of pressure from caravan enthusiasts who couldn't buy EU-build models that were legally too wide to use in the UK.

 

It's not hard to envisage something similar happening in future, e.g. if the EU were to allow longer/heavier trucks, but the UK doesn't follow suit.

[dje]

DV247 are EU now? ! That's news to me, I remember when they were on Acton High Street as Digital Village.

 

AFAIK they are a UK-based, but German-owned company, so who knows? As for DV in Acton; my recollection is very young, very willing, but very slow (I haven't used them since they closed the branches).

 

As a music student in London, I used them a lot. Their prices tended to be better than Sound Control in the basement of Virgin Megastore on Oxford Street, or Turnkey on the end of Denmark Street.

 

It almost seems mad now that there was actually a time when you could put a multi-storey home studio equipment store on a high street in Central London and be commercially viable.

[kerry davies]

Brian, the normal EU FTA with places like Canada and Japan contain strict recognition of conformity and equivalence of sanitary/phytosanitary standards. The deal with the UK has neither. Presumably the latter omission is to enable the UK to import chlorinated chicken which in turn means the end of those niche areas of food and agriculture.

The former however is purely and simply a by-product of "taking back control of our laws" which forces the UK to refuse to recognise the ECJ. The ECJ is the statutory regulatory authority governing everything in the EU including CE (Conformite Europeenne), among lots of other standards and regulations.

 

We are starting out aligned but when the UK government deliberately refuses to sign up to maintaining conformity and standards I suggest it is the writing on the wall.

[ImagineerTom]

Where standards do differ it is likely to more in more 'niche' areas like food and agriculture.

...except as the current administration have proven beyond all doubt - they consider arts/culture/entertainment/music to be a niche sector that they don't have to do anything for whereas sectors which actually are niches (ie employing a lot less people or making a lot less money for the economy) like fishing or financial services are sectors they will burn bridges to save, it would be foolhardy for us to assume that there's some wonderfully clear and logical set of converged and reciprocal regulations heading our way any day now if we all just wait patiently for them. We have ended up setting up subsidiaries in mainland Europe and moved assets from the uk out to there; now we know there's no possibility of UK staff being able to economically work out there for at least a couple of years so we have to step up recruiting and training locally. Even if in 2 years time there's some sort of UK entertainment visa waver in place we can't afford to fire all those local staff and switch the whole business again to operating out of the uk.

Another example of a problem - "double deck" artic trailers aren't allowed in many European countries but because we were all part of the same market uk hauliers (and shows, and circus's from the uk) could use them and drive them around no problem. From next week they will just be completely illegal and because that's such a niche part of a niche market there's absolutely no way politicians are going to scramble to get new waiver or certification process's in place. Dozens of uk based shows and trucking/touring companies will have to chuck out half their fleet because 1) there's too much paperwork for them to travel around the continent and b) their vehicles would be impounded by local police in half the countries. That's a "niche" sector that will impact thousands of people and millions of pounds revenue but which is still far too small to be addressed any time in the next 10 years.

Edited December 29, 2020 by ImagineerTom

[Stuart91]

It almost seems mad now that there was actually a time when you could put a multi-storey home studio equipment store on a high street in Central London and be commercially viable.

 

Very true, Studiospares even moved out to Luton since their location at Staples Corner wasn't paying its way.

 

It wouldn't surprise me, however, if the situation swung back a little, although maybe outside London. There's going to be plenty of call for imaginative uses of empty high street units, they can't all become vape shops or Starbucks. Hopefully the landlords (and rates assessors) will tailor their prices accordingly.

[dje]

It almost seems mad now that there was actually a time when you could put a multi-storey home studio equipment store on a high street in Central London and be commercially viable.

 

Very true, Studiospares even moved out to Luton since their location at Staples Corner wasn't paying its way.

 

It wouldn't surprise me, however, if the situation swung back a little, although maybe outside London. There's going to be plenty of call for imaginative uses of empty high street units, they can't all become vape shops or Starbucks. Hopefully the landlords (and rates assessors) will tailor their prices accordingly.

 

Studiospares is a complex one. It went a bit Maplin didn't it? Seemed to focus more on selling own-brand Chinese imports for home studios.

 

I am casually curious as to what will happen to shop units as high street retail dies away. Prohibitively high rates seems to be an eternal problem at the moment, hence why it is not uncommon to see entire high streets with nothing but charity shops (as they dodge the high rates).

 

 

I'm just not convinced that the market is big enough. Like... do enough people buy audio interfaces, MIDI keyboards and headphones to actually pay the wages and the bills?

 

It makes a lot more sense to hold one warehouse of stock and sell it online than paying for all those shopfronts and store assistants simultaneously. Especially when, unless you can price match the online-only retailers, people will just come to your storefront to trial the product and then buy it online.

 

As for big super-units like what was Debenhams etc... I have no idea what they'll become. In Liverpool I'm pretty sure our BHS is still empty. It'd be great to see those places do something rather than nothing... but it might rely on councils being proactive which is not something they're traditionally good at. If the rents and rates go down to attract new tenants into the empty units, they'll have to go down in the occupied units as well. That's the risk.

Edited December 29, 2020 by dje

[Brian]

Where standards do differ it is likely to more in more 'niche' areas like food and agriculture.

...except as the current administration have proven beyond all doubt - they consider arts/culture/entertainment/music to be a niche sector...

 

But what standards needed for CE marking are there that are exclusive to the events industry? I'm struggling to think of any other than Section 2-17 of EN 60598.

 

All of the electrickery standards are very broadly worded. Got a bit of audio/video kit? 60065 will likely cover it and if it doesn't then you'll be good with 60950.

 

The safety standards have a long track record. EN60065 is derived from IEC65 which I first came across some time in the early 80s.

 

Remember, CE paperwork is issued by the manufacturer, it's a self-certification system and won't change come 1st Jan.

[paulears]

I would NOT bank on the £390 figure at all.

The current information from HMRC is that goods imported over value of £139 including the shipping will attract Duty - for our kind of items, normally 4% and the state of play is that the VAT limit for goods is £15, so if you order from Thomann, you will be charged NO VAT by them as the goods are being exported from German - but it will attract the 20% VAT when it arrives here. In practice, though, the German and UK VAT are very close, so I'm not expecting a price hike - apart from the duty. What is NOT good news is that the processing charges levied as disbursements by Royal Mail, Parcelforce, USP, TNT, Fedex and DHL are currently between £8 and £20 per consignment. Two tracking numbers for two parcels (if you buy PA speaker, for example) would be £20 each, if you used one of three Fedex schemes. Fedex are in a mess since TNT merged with them. The people sending the goods send them - and if they come via Fedex, the charge can be £11 or £12 typically, but Fedex Express can be £20 (as the one that arrived today was). Fedex Express don't even have a way to pay one type of invoice online, or on the phone - they expect, believe it or not, a cheque in the post - or you can risk a BACs transfer with your invoice number as reference number. Sometimes this actually works and you get the goods, sometimes they cannot find your payment to allocate it - so you get a letter in the post, you transfer and then you need to email three email addresss to tell them you have paid. They also add VAT to the £20 disbursement, so you get the item VAT, the duty and the service VAT. A real mess.

 

The scheme as I see it is that Europe to UK consignments will involve 4% duty and the handling fees, and that is not controlled by the seller - it's pure luck who deliver it. VAT would have been levied by Thomann, for example to a domestic customer, but no extra VAT on import. In a few days, they will not charge VAT, and you pay that when the goods arrive in the UK. The handling will be what people complain about, because Parcelforce, or whoever settle the bill on your behalf, and charge you for doing it and you have NO control over what they charge. Small declared value items often have a lower charge - Fedex have in the past charged me £8, but the most has been £24. Just how it is.

 

I don't think we need to worry about this. It's just the scheme that has been used for China imports for years. My guess will be that duty will be applied randomly - it certainly is for Chinese and US imports. Every repeat order I get from China is a different charge - damn annoying.

[themadhippy]

Remember, CE paperwork is issued by the manufacturer, it's a self-certification system and won't change come 1st Jan.

depends wot year

The UKCA marking can be used from 1 January 2021. However, to allow businesses time to adjust to the new requirements, you will still be able to use the CE marking until 1 January 2022 in most cases.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-the-ukca-mark-from-1-january-2021

 

unless of course they've shifted the goalposts again

Edited December 29, 2020 by themadhippy

[kerry davies]

Brian, please read thisLINK which explains what I mean.

 

The UK is almost certainly quitting CEN and CENELEC and has abandoned the CE system. BSI will no longer be a full member of CEN or CENELEC and all Notifed Bodies based in the UK cease to be notified at midnight on Thursday.

[ImagineerTom]

And please remember Brian, there are significantly different safety standards a d certifications all over the world. In the short term Uk requirements (and I’m

Talking everything from electrical to building fire safety) will undoubtedly be basically the same as EU ones but since the gov has gone to great lengths to /not/ be compelled to remain in sync on these sorts of regulations there is clearly an expectation that at some point the Uk will am have different requirements to the EU. it is at this point we need agreements in place confirming how different regulatory frameworks are respected in different territories to handle how we will all do business together. The current agreement (which has taken 4+ years to negotiate) doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface on these issues. Commercial pressures mean the next few years any negotiations will focus on food regulations and other high volume trade sectors all with the requirement to “not let Brussels control us” be the underlying requirement. We have to be a decade at least before proper harmonisation of standards and protocols relating to an non- politically-influential sector like ours is bashed out and implemented. In the mean time there’s going to be a lot of confusion and disputes because of the grey area that is left.

 

It almost seems mad now that there was actually a time when you could put a multi-storey home studio equipment store on a high street in Central London and be commercially viable.

 

Very true, Studiospares even moved out to Luton since their location at Staples Corner wasn't paying its way.

 

It wouldn't surprise me, however, if the situation swung back a little, although maybe outside London. There's going to be plenty of call for imaginative uses of empty high street units, they can't all become vape shops or Starbucks. Hopefully the landlords (and rates assessors) will tailor their prices accordingly.

 

Studiospares is a complex one. It went a bit Maplin didn't it? Seemed to focus more on selling own-brand Chinese imports for home studios.

 

I am casually curious as to what will happen to shop units as high street retail dies away. Prohibitively high rates seems to be an eternal problem at the moment, hence why it is not uncommon to see entire high streets with nothing but charity shops (as they dodge the high rates).

 

 

I'm just not convinced that the market is big enough. Like... do enough people buy audio interfaces, MIDI keyboards and headphones to actually pay the wages and the bills?

 

It makes a lot more sense to hold one warehouse of stock and sell it online than paying for all those shopfronts and store assistants simultaneously. Especially when, unless you can price match the online-only retailers, people will just come to your storefront to trial the product and then buy it online.

 

As for big super-units like what was Debenhams etc... I have no idea what they'll become. In Liverpool I'm pretty sure our BHS is still empty. It'd be great to see those places do something rather than nothing... but it might rely on councils being proactive which is not something they're traditionally good at. If the rents and rates go down to attract new tenants into the empty units, they'll have to go down in the occupied units as well. That's the risk.

 

I can answer that - residential. There’s a cronic shortage of in-city housing nationwide and here in Leicester the main shopping mall which had a Debenhams, bhs, house of fraiser flagship stores has already unveiled plans to demolish that whole wing and rebuild it as 200 apartments with small retail at ground floor.

The independent huge department store in the city that closed 4 years ago recently got planning permission to convert the Victorian building into apartments with retail at street level.

 

The age of city centre retail stores over 4000sqr ft is passed.

[Stuart91]

The other option for large stores (pre-Covid, anyway) was conversion to hotels.

[Simon Lewis]

DV247 are EU now?! That's news to me, I remember when they were on Acton High Street as Digital Village.

 

You think you're ordering from London, but it usually gets invoiced and shipped from Music Store, Cologne (who bought them out)

[itiba]

Good job our legal system, which incidentally is the envy of the world, doesn't work like that then.

 

I would refer you to the current lengthy, costly and incredibly frustrating court case currently in progress where the insurance industry are trying to claim that a global pandemic and being forced to shut down by the government isn't the sort of thing businesss interruption insurance has to cover because of some highly specific by-the-letter readings of regulations and documents as opposed to the common sense reading of the same texts....

 

Well that's comparing apples and oranges suffice to say the High Court (sitting as a pseudo court of appeal) rejected most of the insurers key arguments for avoiding indemnity. It will now pass to the Supreme Court and will allow both parties to seek clarity on the law - which is exactly how a world-renowned legal system should work.

As for burden of proof in an insurance claim (vis a vis whether an item of equipment was CE marked or otherwise) the burden would be placed on the insurer to prove that the item was unsafe, not for you to prove that it was.