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Posted

Hi everyone,

 

 

I help with various things technical/backstage at a (very) amateur theatre group. I volunteered to help when their last tech guy left, so I've *never* had the opportunity to learn from or work with someone who knows what they're doing! (we mostly get by ok)

 

For dramas, where the director is aiming for realism, I've used a stereo setup to play sound effects coming from the general area (left vs right) where the prop/actor/etc is located. I'm sure this is done in a much more sophisticated way in other theatres and I'm wondering how it's done??

 

I want to be able to have a number of speakers in each section of our small stage (thirds would be fine, quarters better, and sixths probably ideal) and potentially extras for certain props (e.g. a telephone or a crying baby in a crib).

 

I could guess how to do it, but would rather do it right (or at least understand the right way to do it, so I can see what will work for us).

 

 

Apologies if the answer is already out there (or on here). I have spent a good few hours looking about, but it's difficult to find answers if you don't know which search keywords to use!

 

Thanks in advance

G

Posted
Ae you perhaps over-complicating things? For small or medium scale am-dram productions a single pair of speakers behind the action will usually suffice (keep speakers each side of the proscenium arch for walk-in & interval music). If you want to be more ambitious you could add a couple of small speakers on long leads for spot effects (babies, phones, radios, pianos, etc, etc.) If your prop baby needs to be carried around you could try a Bluetooth speaker, although it's surprising how well you can get away with effects from a fixed speaker, providing it's roughly in the right direction & you get the levels right - in several decades of am-dram & fringe productions in 50 - 750-seat venues I can think of very few occasions when I couldn't get away with wired speakers.
Posted

I agree with this. The only other thing you would sometimes do is use actual sounds eg real doorbell or ring a real phone (you can make or hire ring controllers).

 

The main thing where amdram sound effects usually fall down is people play them far too loud. Even proscenium mounted speakers can work if you are careful with the levels.

Posted
Doorbells is easy - 2 or different ones on a piece of wood with a 9-12v battery - every theatre / company should have one. Ringers for UK phones is a bit more fiddly - as Tim says you can hire them (quite expensive to buy) - google Telephone Ringers for Theatre. If you fancy making one try this link https://www.blue-roo...showtopic=34615 or search for Telephone Ringers in the BR Search box.
Posted (edited)

Leaving aside whether it's necessary (maybe not, you can do plenty with a stereo pair) or desirable, or whether amateurs should be even bothering with multi channel playback (we're an amateur theatre and our basic sound setup uses 12 channels with more available for spot effects, so ...) the OP wanted to know how it's done, or can be done.

 

Essentially, you need some way to play back multiple sound tracks simultaneously. There are lots of ways to do this, but most these days involve a computer with some sort of multi output audio card, feeding into multiple amplifiers, to drive your speakers.

 

The way we do it is to use USB into our mixer to get 32 in and 32 out. There are lots of multi output interfaces available (take a look at the scarlett range, for example).

 

You also need some software to play those multiple tracks to multiple channels. We use Qlab, others use SCS, Multiplay, SFX and there are even Linux based applications too - Linux show player looks remarkably like a certain Mac based program. These programs will allow you to stop, start and fade in and out sound effects, across multiple channels, allowing you to place a sound where you want it, or even to have a sound move around between channels (we used this to great effect in "Flare path" with aircraft flying "through" the auditorium) right on cue. They can do lots more than this, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

 

So - essentially, you need a multi output sound card (or equivalent), an amplifier and speaker for each channel, and some software to control it all. Oh, and as already suggested, be aware of the levels - don't overdo it, and remember, with more levels to balance, your sound setup takes that much longer.

Edited by alistermorton
Posted

Doorbells is easy - 2 or different ones on a piece of wood with a 9-12v battery - every theatre / company should have one. Ringers for UK phones is a bit more fiddly - as Tim says you can hire them (quite expensive to buy) - google Telephone Ringers for Theatre. If you fancy making one try this link https://www.blue-roo...showtopic=34615 or search for Telephone Ringers in the BR Search box.

 

 

I haven't looked at the link or others but ringing a phone is so easy. Use a 100V anplifier, plug a standard phone into the loudspeaker output without any loudspeakers and play a your chosen sound effect. The phone will ring and when its picked up the ringing will stop. Adjust the volume so it rings OK but the sound coming from the receiver is not heard. Easy Peasy squeezed lemons etc.

I tend to play sound effects through the auditorium speakers when fitted in small halls for AmDram, if needed in a specific place I'll add additional speakers, such as canford powered speaker. Example: we wanted an ice cream van to arrive from behind the audience, sound like it came through the room then disappear to the rear of the stage. The sound faded up slowly at the rear, then into the mains then back stage then faded out in the same order.

If they insist on door knocker SFX there will be a speaker by the door etc and I find the canfords are ideal.

One village hall with only one access to the stage has a permanently fitted speaker there, just for that reason.

 

Posted
The phone ring trick will work with a low impedance app too. Made a phone with an NL4 on it, one circuit for the ringer, the other for the earpiece. Good for studio shows, where it’s hard to get a location for the earpiece sound.
Posted

Thanks for all your comments ;)

 

Ae you perhaps over-complicating things? For small or medium scale am-dram productions a single pair of speakers behind the action will usually suffice

We've used the set up you describe, but as we grow and improve we're always looking for new challenges (it's a hobby after all) and have found our sound effects could do with catching up a bit with the rest of our productions in terms of quality.

 

 

If you want to be more ambitious you could add a couple of small speakers on long leads for spot effects

This is what I'm interested to learn about - if I add some small speakers on leads, how do I get the sound effect to play on those and not on the other speakers placed around the stage?

 

 

I agree with this. The only other thing you would sometimes do is use actual sounds eg real doorbell or ring a real phone

Good suggestion. I've started to encourage 'real' sounds - a few doorbells, figured out how to make a phone ring on cue, etc. The actors and directors all feel that the increased realism is really helping them push themselves to be better too.

 

 

The main thing where amdram sound effects usually fall down is people play them far too loud.

Yes, I'm conscious of this. Think our previous tech peeps might have been guilty of this as the directors all seem hesitant about using background/ambient sounds as they're too loud and drown out the actors (we don't use mics). But I've recently convinced a director to let my try some background/ambient sounds (a kettle coming to the boil in the distance, rain on a window, onboard a train, etc.) and they sounded really convincing with good placing and careful levels.

 

 

So - essentially, you need a multi output sound card (or equivalent), an amplifier and speaker for each channel, and some software to control it all.

Thanks, I thought this is what I needed (a way to match sounds to channels, a way to output all those channels to an amp/s, a way to amplify each channel, a speaker/s for each channel) but didn't know what any of the bits were called!

 

So using an interface I'd need an amp for each channel? The PA we use now has an 2 amps, 1 left 1 right, so are there products which similarly have many amps for each channel all in one unit? (a bit like a surround sound system you get for DVD player??)

 

And thanks for the suggestions, I've looked up the Scarlett range, and will continue to have a look about at similar products. I'd heard about a few of those software packages, so I'll check those out too.

 

 

(we used this to great effect in "Flare path" with aircraft flying "through" the auditorium) right on cue.

That's awesome. I've done a similar thing (but much more basic) with a train coming in to a platform (from stage left to right) just using stereo speakers, which went down quite well.

 

 

Thanks again everyone who commented. I've got plenty of homework to get started on. Any other recommendations, particularly good cheap hardware, would be much appreciated ;)

 

G

Posted

So using an interface I'd need an amp for each channel? The PA we use now has an 2 amps, 1 left 1 right, so are there products which similarly have many amps for each channel all in one unit? (a bit like a surround sound system you get for DVD player??)

 

I wouldn't bother with a multi-channel amp. Keep the amp you have for the main stereo PA and buy a small s/hand stereo unit (or two, or three) for the spot effects.

Posted

There are so many ways it can be done... it is all down to imagination at the end of the day. If you can think of what you want to do (and your budget permits) it can be achieved.

 

Commercially you can get amplifiers that hold 8 channels - there may be larger capacity amps, but I don't know of them off the top of my head - however in events we tend to just have a rack with as many amps as we need to drive the system.

 

In this "digital" age there are 2 main ways that we tend to do audio mapped to a space - we either do it in the audio track itself when it is mastered (great for long run shows), or we use some software or hardware to "map" the sound around the space.

 

If it is mastered then the audio file(s) will have as many tracks as there are speakers involved - and each track requires one input to the desk (and one output from the playback device) - and we won't really be able to tweak it without editing and remastering the audio file. Think of it as a 5:1 surround audio on a dvd. Same basic idea.

 

The second option can be done multiple ways - you can do it in software on the playback device - we'll still need 1 output per speaker - in software we can move the source in a virtual space - and essentially the closer the source is to an output device in that virtual space, the louder the sound comes out that speaker..

 

There are also hardware options - some desks support multichannel panning - replicating the same sort of functionality as the software has but needing only a single input to the desk. The functionality is also available on every channel on the desk. That means that you can also use it to do things like throw an actors voice, amongst other things.

 

There are also ridiculously expensive (and powerful) systems like Meyer D-Mitri. This thing can handle hundreds of speakers - I know Cirque has at least one show that runs something like 15:3 surround combined with left, centre and right channels in each seat in the auditorium.

 

At the end of the day though, the proscenium tends to present as a 2d space - and left-centre-right can probably do 90% of shows pretty well - the other 10% might benefit from some rears for "in audience effects"

Posted

I wouldn't bother with a multi-channel amp. Keep the amp you have for the main stereo PA and buy a small s/hand stereo unit (or two, or three) for the spot effects.

We're after replacing our current PA (a 2nd hand donation) anyway. But will keep this idea in mind. Thanks ;)

 

 

There are so many ways it can be done...

Thanks, this is a great answer - explains how the pro's do it, the rationale, and what I need to think about. Cheers - I'll go have a think about all this. Now I've got the basic idea (and most importantly the jargon) I should be able to come up with something that suits our needs/budget.

 

 

G

Posted

Ok, lets start with what goes to the speakers. Ambient tracks are what tell the audience that the actors are at the seaside, in the countryside, a city, a foreign country, or whatever, in a way that lighting never can. Old-fashioned C90 compact-cassettes are great for long "atmos" tracks. Sound effects tell you what's happening at this moment. A good tip for "setting the scene" is to introduce a fairly strong effect (e.g. crashing waves) & gently fade it to a low level as the actors speak, bringing it up again as the scene ends.

 

It's really important to do some research about what might be appropriate for the period & setting of your play; basically does it sound right? Sometimes the "wrong" sound can be better than the "correct" one (years ago I did a play about a Victorian lady explorer in Africa. For "atmos" I used sounds from jungles all over the world. It was totally wrong, but it sounded right). I used to rely on BBC & other sound-effects discs, but there are tens of thousands of free or free-ish sound-effects on the internet, though you might find that very few are usable. As it's a hobby you could even try creating your own effects.

 

Equipment; It doesn't matter what your playback source is, whether reel-reel, CD, mini-disc, laptop, phone (or even wind-up gramophone!); what matters is getting your sound to the right speaker at the right volume. For this you need a Mixer. This can be software in a laptop feeding a sound-card, but if you want to be able to change levels easily on the fly you need a physical box with faders. There are lots of small sub-£100 (or even sub-£50) 4 - 8+ input mixers around from the likes of Behringer, Soundcraft & many others. They will only have 2 main outputs, but will usually have 1 or 2 independent "Auxiliary" outputs, which allow you to feed a source directly to a spot-effect speaker.

 

For amplifiers see Brian's answer above.

Posted

There's a good argument for doing as Brian says and avoiding the multi amp boxes - if one of the amps fails and the unit has to go away for repair, you lose more channels.

 

Also, don't discount small powered speakers for spot effects, or even bluetooth speakers (watch for the latency) for "in costume" effects. We did God of Carnage last year, and rather than having the character's mobile phone actually ring he had a bluetooth speaker in his jacket pocket for the noise of the phone ringing. Handy, as the phone itself got dunked in a vase of water each night.

Posted

The second most common issue with am dram sfx after volume is the start/stop cues. Apart from the "that must be someone at the door " 2 beats later (knock knock /ring) Background or establishing sfx need to be a good bit longer than the scene, and faded up with the LX so a beach "appears" or "disappears" to the audience. Seagulls that are terrifyingly loud but suddenly stop scream amdram.You can use 7.1 to spread sound all over the place - but OTT for what you need.

I'd be tempted to have a couple of FOH amps and speakers for announcements, background etc and then some balanced powered speakers that could be located where you need them

More than one replay device can be handy if you're just using some BG sounds and some spots. You could run Qlab from a Mac through a 7.1 but it might be complicated. Don't be afraid of an ASM with a chunk of ply, with a doorbell, door knocker, etc and a bucket of broken crockery to tip into a plastic dustbin for offstage noises

The last venue I worked in was keen on in the round/prom /traverse so we used Qlab / presonus sound cards and crown amps through turbosound in three of the spacesBut it still came down to a small powered speaker in the right place sometimes. You can also make use of self powered speakers hidden away

Posted

Ok, lets start with what goes to the speakers...

Thanks, we're fine for the basics but good to hear it again and with the right terminology. The main thing is going beyond 2 channels.

 

 

There's a good argument for doing as Brian says and avoiding the multi amp boxes - if one of the amps fails and the unit has to go away for repair, you lose more channels...

Good point, I'll bear it in mind. Ease of setup/use is a major factor for us too, as we're all volunteers (and some are less inclined that others to put in the effort to learn new things).

 

 

The second most common issue with am dram sfx...

Our current setup is fine as far as all this. It's the multiple channels we're after. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll definitely think about multiple playback sources.

 

 

G

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