Relevant codes

[revbobuk]

Folks - just to say I am not looking for 'how to do this' advice.

 

I have a client who wants to install a projector in a church. I've outlined a number of solutions that I am happy with. But the client has said 'can't I just get a length of truss from eBay and put that across the central area (there is a balcony all round). That way I can use a much cheaper projector, rather than a long throw one from the back. The span is around 10m.

 

I don't need advice on his solution! I'm not competent to engineer it, and wouldn't consider it. What I do need is to know what regulatory constraints would be relevant to the installation and use of such a solution. Would it need to be inspected, tested etc. Or could he legally do what he suggests - buy a length of truss from eBay and install it above the heads of the public?

[timsabre]

I assume this is a church being used as an actual church, I.e not as a venue with paying audience which might change things as the local authority would then be involved also.

I am just a bloke on the internet so take my opinion with caution but I think this would just be down to what his insurance company has to say about it, there are no laws or regulations. Churches are effectively a private building so he can do what he wants in there but if it fell down and injured someone, who would be liable for it? You are quite right to be concerned and I have seen some horror installations in churches done by well-meaning church members over the years.

 

Also, depending on the denomination of the church, the church hierarchy may have rules about what is allowed, precisely to control this sort of thing e.g. if Church of England you would be into faculties and DAC approval which would involve the church architect etc, I am sure that would kill the idea...

 

[Ynot]

Folks - just to say I am not looking for 'how to do this' advice.

 

I have a client who wants to install a projector in a church. I've outlined a number of solutions that I am happy with. But the client has said 'can't I just get a length of truss from eBay and put that across the central area (there is a balcony all round). That way I can use a much cheaper projector, rather than a long throw one from the back. The span is around 10m.

 

I don't need advice on his solution! I'm not competent to engineer it, and wouldn't consider it. What I do need is to know what regulatory constraints would be relevant to the installation and use of such a solution. Would it need to be inspected, tested etc. Or could he legally do what he suggests - buy a length of truss from eBay and install it above the heads of the public?

 

And 10m of truss of any sort is going to need at LEAST 3 pickups to support its own weight even without anything on there (and let's not forget that once they have a 10m truss in the sky it won't be JUST a projector for very long! So are there properly rated and tested points from which to suspend those pickups in the church roof? I suspect not.

[revbobuk]

You are of course right. "Let's shove a couple of lights up there for Christmas". The plan is for end support only, by the way. I'm interested in the extent to which a church is a private place, and thus (first reply) can do what it likes as far as safety codes go, or is it a public place - anyone can just drop in - and it must comply. After all, a theatre is also privately owned, but is a public place. Surely it is public? The law says a “Public place” includes any highway and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise ”. Edited October 4, 2019 by revbobuk

[James Remo]

And 10m of truss of any sort is going to need at LEAST 3 pickups to support its own weight even without anything on there

 

There are plenty of trusses available that can easily cope with a 10m span, just supported at the ends, and still have capacity for load. A type, litec QL52, JTE supertruss, prolyte s52, total fabs OV40..... Consult the manufacturers load tables.

Granted the generic stuff off eBay probably wouldn’t fall into this list, but your statement above is incorrect. I’m not commenting on the situation the OP is in, just the statement about truss.

[Stuart91]

I'm interested in the extent to which a church is a private place, and thus (first reply) can do what it likes as far as safety codes go, or is it a public place - anyone can just drop in - and it must comply. After all, a theatre is also privately owned, but is a public place.

 

One crucial difference is that the church won't have any kind of premises/entertainment licence. So the sort of issue we're discussing here won't even be on the radar of those in authority, and they're unlikely to have a council inspector pull them up about it.

 

I've seen quite a bit of downright dangerous stuff in churches - both electrical and rigging/structural - and trying to get it addressed is often an uphill struggle.

 

There are circumstances in which a 10m truss span could be done safely. We've twice built goalpost trusses between balconies, but they've been properly rated (not a random eBay buy) and fixed to pillars for lateral support. Doing it properly will probably cost about the same as the price difference on a projector with a long-throw lens, though. The arithmetic was different a decade or so ago...

[revbobuk]

I'm interested in the extent to which a church is a private place, and thus (first reply) can do what it likes as far as safety codes go, or is it a public place - anyone can just drop in - and it must comply. After all, a theatre is also privately owned, but is a public place.

 

One crucial difference is that the church won't have any kind of premises/entertainment licence. So the sort of issue we're discussing here won't even be on the radar of those in authority, and they're unlikely to have a council inspector pull them up about it.

 

I've seen quite a bit of downright dangerous stuff in churches - both electrical and rigging/structural - and trying to get it addressed is often an uphill struggle.

 

There are circumstances in which a 10m truss span could be done safely. We've twice built goalpost trusses between balconies, but they've been properly rated (not a random eBay buy) and fixed to pillars for lateral support. Doing it properly will probably cost about the same as the price difference on a projector with a long-throw lens, though. The arithmetic was different a decade or so ago...

 

That's my thinking exactly. And this particular building is very suitable for using a pair of large-screen TV displays instead - even cheaper than the long-throw projector option. And much less ugly than truss across the middle! Good point about the licence - but they will still have a periodic inspection from their insurers, in my experience. That's usually where safety issues get raised (and then often ignored). It's a nonconformist chapel - and I'm a minister of one of those too, so I have got a fair bit of relevant experience.

[Stuart91]

If they're set on a projection screen rather than flatscreens, the only other option that might be worth considering is an ultra-wide projector. We've had good results with Hitachi and Epson models that use curved mirrors instead of a conventional lens. Sometimes they can get snuck into position that other machines (even with fisheye lenses) couldn't manage.

[Ynot]

And 10m of truss of any sort is going to need at LEAST 3 pickups to support its own weight even without anything on there

 

There are plenty of trusses available that can easily cope with a 10m span, just supported at the ends, and still have capacity for load. A type, litec QL52, JTE supertruss, prolyte s52, total fabs OV40..... Consult the manufacturers load tables.

Granted the generic stuff off eBay probably wouldn't fall into this list, but your statement above is incorrect. I'm not commenting on the situation the OP is in, just the statement about truss.

That is a fair point BUT the OP is talking about a budget solution. And as I think someone else has said, buying in 10m of top quality truss (and the suitable fixings to mount it) that will be sufficient for the job is almost certainly going to exceed the budget by several orders of magnitude.

[revbobuk]

Guys - this has been really useful and interesting thus far. But could I nudge the conversation back to the original question. What, if any, regulation is actually in effect in this situation?

[ImagineerTom]

There is not one law relating to installing truss in chrurches for projectors. However this does fall under a raft of health and safety obligations, building regulations and standard industry practices. In short the church and the installer (whether a company or a volunteer) have legal responsibility (and culpability) to ensure that what they install is safe, meets any and all regulations or restrictions that apply to that specific installation venue and that can be demonstrated (in a court of the worst happens) that the people who did the sums and made the decisions about doing this task are competent and suitably skilled. i.e. retired Fred the accountant who bought some unbranded truss from Ebay and fixed it up with some pound shop screws definitely isn’t any of those things. A professional installation company with many years trading history installing brand name parts and who has produced cad plans / engineering statements to show why it’s all legit and suitable probably does meet the definition of competent

[Ynot]

Guys - this has been really useful and interesting thus far. But could I nudge the conversation back to the original question. What, if any, regulation is actually in effect in this situation?

I think you've sort of had the answer - and that it depends on what the status of the church is which I'm not sure you've yet clarified.

 

 

 

[timsabre]

I think you've sort of had the answer - and that it depends on what the status of the church is which I'm not sure you've yet clarified.

 

He's said it's a nonconformist chapel which I assume is independent of any church denominations, so there will be no rules from the church side and no venue licensing or anything like that.

As Tom said it is basically down to health and safety obligations.

 

This is not going to help as I presume you are looking for regulations which you can use to stop this ill-advised scheme. If it was me I would be encouraging the potential installer to consider their competence in ensuring the structure was safe, and their liability if it all fell down on a church full of people. That might put them off the idea, hopefully.

Edited October 4, 2019 by timsabre

[revbobuk]

Would the answer be any different if it was a theatre?

[Jivemaster]

The issue with the truss is that unless it's a professional brand truss (therefore NOT ebay amazon etc) and the truss has been recently inspected and certified, then there is NO IDEA of it's safe working load in any configuration. As has also been inferred above there is a near certainty that the applied load will get increased on a weekly basis -maybe a speaker box each side!!!!

 

Whether or not it's a private place, there is a risk of a collapse causing injury, and someone needs to have the evidence to prove that the installation as it fell was competently installed for the insurers to consider it an "accident" rather than a foolhardy venture.

 

Far better that the projector is mounted onto a suitable shelf of the right size and strength of exactly the size of the projector so that nothing else can be left there.