Which desk

[Lainey]

Hello everyone!

 

So, I've spent a hell of a lot of time reading everything everyone has written about all sorts of things now, and finally have a question of my own to ask.

 

If faced with the choice between a second hand Ion Classic and a Secondhand GrandMA light... both at about a similar price... to be used in a secondary school for musicals, during which we hire in movers (and obviously anything else that gets thrown at it) which one should we go for. We will be looking to expand the lighting stock with which a more advanced desk becomes a little bit more essential. We've recieved a grant form the alumni fund on the proviso that I then use it as much as possible and teach the students in my tech club how to use it too. Personally I've never spent a lot of time on an Ion and I've never used an MA, having worked on cruise ships with Road Hogs for a couple of years that is still the board I would say I'm most comfortable working on. When I have used an ion before I've struggled to get my head round how effects work, programming a hue sine or a hue step was always a breeze on a Hog... So, either way I'm going to have to learn how the board works pretty quick. I know the basics on an ion, setting up a show, and most importantly how to save to three different USB backups because I will lose at least two of them and the power cord will get pulled out or some delightful child will delete the entire show when my back is turned for 2 seconds! hahaha

 

Which is going to be easiest to teach them to use in half an hour a week, as well as me being able to get up to speed on it to program the school musical on it in 2 months? Which do you think will last us better in the long run?

 

Just to be clear, these are the only two options we are considering right now, a pure busking desk won't work for us and it's not my preferred style of programming. The students don't have to be able to programme unsupervised by the time we get to the musical, but them knowing enough to have a go would be awesome!

 

Thanks so much! Any and all opinions on this matter gratefully recieved!

 

Lainey x

[Bryson]

Assuming the MA is a MA 1, I'd go with the Ion. It's still getting software updates unlike the MA, which is now 2 generations old, and will be easier for the kids to learn. It's also likely had an "easier" life so far, given the markets that those two products tend to circulate in. The effects thing is a bit harder than the MA or Hog options, but it's improving.

[mac.calder]

The Ion is a newer desk.

 

The MA software, I would argue, is more powerful, but the hardware is showing its age... The Light hardware gen 1 was released in 2000 and was replaced by the MA2 in 2008.

 

An MA is very similar in operation to a Hog II/III. The 'thought' processes for the commands are similar. The MA is (IMO) a very user friendly desk. A pre-patched and setup show can be have basic states programmed in by someone with about 15 minutes training. That said, you can spend months with it and still not know the desk in depth.

 

The Ion is very theatre. It's very true to the ETC mode of operation - which is adjacent (in a sense) to the old Strand 300/500 and older ETC consoles.

 

If you know Hog and are comfortable with Hog, I would go the MA route provided the desk is in good condition (motorised faders working, USB working, UPS working). I would also ask as part of the sale that you ask that someone spend about an hour or so with you on how to use the desk.

[timsabre]

If you are teaching students, I would go Ion, because it will be a more useful skill for them to have - pretty much every UK theatre having an Eos desk.

 

 

 

[Jivemaster]

Are you permitted to purchase second hand items? Some budget holders are not happy with this.

[richard_cooper]

Assuming the MA is a MA 1, I'd go with the Ion. It's still getting software updates unlike the MA, which is now 2 generations old, and will be easier for the kids to learn. It's also likely had an "easier" life so far, given the markets that those two products tend to circulate in. The effects thing is a bit harder than the MA or Hog options, but it's improving.

 

However if you go with the Ion I'd try and find a newer Win7 one as the old XP ones will not support any new versions starting sometime next year.

[Bryson]

Still, software updates up to 2019 are probably preferable to software that was discontinued in 2014....

[timmeh2]

Hi

 

Personally I cannot stand the way ETC consoles treats fixtures and channels the same - calling them both 'channels' - it's counter-intuitive.

 

I would go with the MA any day of the week. The MA1s maybe old, but there's very little you can't do on them. Contrary to popular thinking, they are highly buskable, and you can even set them up like an Avo, should you wish.

 

And motorized faders, UPS and a unix-based OS beats anything windows hands down.

 

All the best

Timmeh

[J Pearce]

Personally I cannot stand the way ETC consoles treats fixtures and channels the same - calling them both 'channels' - it's counter-intuitive.

 

Don't mean to contradict, but out of interest - what are you calling a channel that isn't a fixture? ETC EOS has channels, which are fixtures (whether that's a single address dimmer or a mover that needs 32 addresses), and attributes which are the individual addresses of a fixture (accepting that some attributes are 16 bit and thus use 2 addresses).

[timmeh2]

Hi

 

I had an Element2 on a tour and I really didn't feel at home on it, even after dozens of shows and a good few days drilling down into its features beforehand. Maybe it was the way it was patched, but for instance, Channel 68 was a generic and Channel 69 was a 20+ channel moving head, something which I found annoying. Also getting into the menus and recording macros was a total pain.

 

I know it shouldn't have really made a difference, we're all well-used to desks that do the same, but for some reason it agitated me.

 

On another note, I don't know if it's true for other ETC desks, but the colour scheme (orange buttons, white text, black background), looked remarkably similar to MA2. Even the font was pretty close.

 

All the best

Timmeh

[jonathanhill]

However if you go with the Ion I'd try and find a newer Win7 one as the old XP ones will not support any new versions starting sometime next year.

There is an upgrade available to Windows 7 for the older Ion Classic so it can be updated past 2019. It does include a hardware upgrade by ETC, so will probably have to be sent to them in London. Not sure on cost. Be wary of a console with a dual DVI port, however, as these may need further work. More information here: https://www.etcconn...igibility.aspx

[IRW]

Hi

 

I had an Element2 on a tour and I really didn't feel at home on it, even after dozens of shows and a good few days drilling down into its features beforehand. Maybe it was the way it was patched, but for instance, Channel 68 was a generic and Channel 69 was a 20+ channel moving head, something which I found annoying. Also getting into the menus and recording macros was a total pain.

 

I know it shouldn't have really made a difference, we're all well-used to desks that do the same, but for some reason it agitated me.

 

On another note, I don't know if it's true for other ETC desks, but the colour scheme (orange buttons, white text, black background), looked remarkably similar to MA2. Even the font was pretty close.

 

All the best

Timmeh

 

Sounds like it was just set up badly tbh. Not sure why you think recording macros was a total pain...'Learn' 'Macro' 'X' is pretty straightforward!

[timmeh2]

Maybe I was being a bit thick; although having watched the show's programmer struggling with a task I could have done virtually instantly on an MA might have clouded my opinion somewhat.

[Judge]

I too have tasked a programmer at a theatre with an Ion to make some effects for me. I cam back from lunch and she was still at it. I thought, if I had been on an Avo/ChamSys/MA/Hog it would have been done in 5 minutes.But its not a task she was familiar with and thats a tough position to be in. Having said that, its not an ETC strong point - yet. We shall see what Sarah Clausen and her team do with it over the next year or so now they own High End.Learning ETC is a good skill to have if you are an LD. They will continue to be the industry standard for some time to come. Learning MA1 will come easier to you though if you know Hog.

 

[Lainey]

Thanks for everything so far guys, really appreciated!

 

Budget has been approved for the purchase of a lighting desk by the bursar, so as long as it's a lighting desk and within the budget it won't matter if it's second hand, and frankly we can't afford the kind of spec we want that will give us the ability to expand the rig in the future without going second hand.

 

Yes, and MA1, and yes I am aware of the XP/Win7 thing, but was not aware that could be sorted by sending it back to ETC, I will have to look into that! (the link got condensed, so apparently it won't work...)

 

The biggest thing I have to remember is that while I will probably be the person using this desk the most, I'm not buying it for me! If I was I'd probably dig deep and buy a second hand hog, because I love them despite some people hating them and I am comfortable finding my way around them, I love the way you can open up a cue and fiddle with individual fixture timings within the cue... and I don't know how to even start doing that with an Ion, obviously I don't know how to do that with an MA either, but there's the vote that I'd find that transition easier.

 

I have done the free ETC course for Ion before, and I'd probably be pretty keen to do it again if we did get an Ion. I'm sure once I'm working with it every day I will get used to it, and I did manage to program last years show on an Ion, but it wasn't as easy as I'd have liked... That said, I have to teach 11-18 year olds how to use this desk and I don't want to disadvantage them by choosing the MA and for them to struggle to move to the EOS system the way I feel like I am...

 

In some ways I guess that does answer my question... I will have more time to get used to the desk before this show, I will have time to work out how effects work, and the Ion should last the school longer... As much as I'd love to go for an MA I think the best decision for the school is to go for the Ion, and I have friends I can ask dumb questions if I get stuck as well, which is always helpful! A lot of this thread has really confirmed the thoughts I've had, which is kinda comforting that I'm not talking complete rubbish, so thank you immensely for that!

I'm open to more opinions on the matter as we haven't bought the desk yet, and I'll let you know when we do so that this doesn't become a pointless discussion.

Again, thank you all so much!