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razor

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Hi all

 

 

I have a question to do with PAT. I know that a PAT testneed to be completed by someone who is combatant to complete the task and the easiestway to prove that is to complete a cores like S&G. But my question is if anitem fails who can fix it and re test? Dose the repair work need to be done by aqualified electrician?

 

 

Thanks

 

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All testing should be done by a "competent person". There's no point insisting that the first person to do a test needs to be competent if you then say the re-test can be done by someone who isn't.

 

An easy way to show a person is competent is to prove they have been on a course, but it's quite easy to go on a course and come out none the wiser than when you went in (I'm sure we've all been there!) so I'd be looking at more than that to prove the person competent. In my previous role (I was a Tech Manager at a different theatre) I used to send people on a course then oversee them doing a few tests to make sure they were doing them properly. After that I would spot check every so often just to ensure all was still well. After doing this several times without an issue I would then leave them to it as I had done everything reasonably practical to ensure they were "competent".

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Hi

 

 

Thanks for the reply. Some very good points there. But what Ireally want to know is if something fails can the same pension that did thetest do any repairs or would a qualified electrician need to do it?

 

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There is a lot of subjectivity around the word 'competent' and others that might apply...

What you might think is a competent person, what WE might view as such and perhaps what a court would accept as competent could well be three completely different things.

 

And as Tom suggests, that can also depend on what it actually is that is being tested/repaired.

 

A competent person can replace a plug or socket without the need for extensive training, but I'd expect only a qualified person to attempt to repair a complex piece of electrical gear (though there are many many people who have experience with electrics/electronics who would feel competent at giving same a shot in many circumstances).

 

Is there a specific instance where you have a problem, or is this just a generic query?

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Take some examples then of what kind of faults a PAT might pick up on.

 

Damaged mains plug - fitting a plug used to be a very common skill but as there's less call for it now with them generally being moulded, not as many folks are familiar. You certainly don't need to be an electrician but you do need to be competent. How do you measure that?

 

Damaged flex - how is it terminated inside? Screw terminals - easy. Crimped terminals - easy but only if you have the right crimps and tool. Soldered to PCB - easy with the right tools and experience. BUT. Do you understand what you're working with? If it's a SMPS, do you know how long to leave it for the high voltage capacitors to discharge? Or do you know how to safely discharge them?

 

Repairs is a whole different set of skills to PAT which you won't learn on any PAT course as it's beyond the scope of the tests. There's no reason why one person can't test, repair and retest - I do - but that person needs to be suitably knowledgeable and skilled for the tasks they're undertaking. In other words, competent. And, importantly, that means knowing when you're out of your depth and seeking help from elsewhere.

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I work in a school and look after there theatre and 2 drama studios. I personally feel happy changing plugs, flexes and making new TRS as I have done for years. The school have a company come in and do the PAT test every year, But due to the cost they are looking at doing it in house and sending me on a 2 day C&G cores, witch im more than happy to do but the question has come up who should fix the equipment that fails? Is there any law saying who is allowed to do the repairs. Most repairs im commutable doing my self but that does not mean I should.
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Tony (Ynot) makes an interesting point about different levels of ability but I would disagree slightly with his definition of "competent" as opposed to "qualified". It seems to me that "competent" relates to a skill rather than a person. In other words, I am competent at changing a plug, making a 16-13, replacing a part on a Source Four zoom profile and lots of other jobs, but I am not competent at running in a new ring main from the main incoming board, building a distro or taking apart a Barco projector and re-assembling it. I could certainly give all of those jobs a go and might even make a pretty good fist of them, but in the eyes of the law I wouldn't be "competent" at them and so if I did give any of them a go I would need to get someone else who really was "competent" to check them out for me before I'd let anyone use them in a business context.

 

Thus, in your case, I think you seem to be saying that you feel "competent" in knowing what should pass and what should fail, you feel comfortable at doing the repairs but you don't feel "competent" at signing off the repairs you have done. If this is the case then certainly I would agree that you should have someone else do the re-test. If you got more training so you did feel competent with re-testing then you could do it yourself. But you may like to consider the suggestion I made above that the best way with training is to have someone watch you do a few then randomly sample a few just to ensure the training really did go in properly.

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This may help.

Then again it may not, but what the legal angle remains is that those who inspect and test need training and competence just as those who repair need training and competence in repairing the item in question.

 

JSB's approach is sensible. Since the person responsible at the venue is the one carrying the can they need to determine just what limitations each person is capable of achieving. This applies right through the safety regime, just because someone waves a forklift ticket at me as a Production/Site Manager does not mean it removes my responsibility to keep an eye out to determine their competence for myself. Tickets never ever signify competence, just like an MOT test on a car, they merely show it was "OK on the day". I know plenty of "qualified" people in all sorts of walks of life I wouldn't trust with a mop let alone anything hazardous.

Competence can be described as the combination of training, skills, experience and knowledge that a person has and their ability to apply them to perform a task safely. Other factors, such as attitude and physical ability, can also affect someone’s competence.‘The essence of competence is relevance to the workplace. What matters is that there is a proper focus on both the risks that occur most often and those with serious consequences."

From here!

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Application of a test machine produces evidence for a tester (person) to base decisions on. One of those decisions can be to determine who should attempt a repair. Some things need more skill than others, sometimes the manufacturer's service agent is the only repairer sometimes someone with more general skill can effect a repair (for example -replace a fuse).

 

If you can't analyse the fault, having found it, there is little point in doing the test, -pass the testing to someone with the necessary skill.

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so is the question

 

" I am happy to be trained to PAT items like lanterns and do minor corrective maintenance, am I ok to do this?"

 

I think the answer is YES, so long as you test afterwards. ( and feel ok doing it)

AFAIK to do simple lantern repairs you don't need specialist training but you do need to be aware that they get very hot, so specialist cable, shielding etc is needed.Always use suitable repair techniques and don't bodge

 

Many PAT agencies just test and fail loads of serviceable theatre kit because of daft ideas like 5/15A plugs being "wrong"

 

what exactly are you doing?

 

anything vaguely installation based gets tricky.

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My view is that if someone is competent to carry out portable appliance testing, then they are probably competent to carry out simple repairs, perhaps after a little extra training.

 

IME very few appliances fail the actual electrical tests, the great majority of fails are IME on the visual inspection. Usually damaged plugs, damaged flex, or missing guards/grilles on desk fans.

 

Replacing a plug is easy, anyone of normal intelligence can learn how to do this. Replacing a flex varies in complexity depending on the design of the appliance, some types cant be replaced as the appliance is moulded or glued together with no access to the connections. Damaged IEC leads are most unlikely to justify repair, simply bin and replace with new.

 

In most cases, if the repair is such as to need a qualified electrician, then it will usually be cheaper to replace the appliance, remembering that many more expensive appliances use either an external PSU or a detachable lead that can be readily replaced.

 

 

 

 

 

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The electrical aspects have been thoroughly covered.

 

The C&G course I went on was appalling. If I hadn't already known what I was doing then I would have still been clueless.

 

Beware! This can be a big job and there's a risk that they want you to do the whole school next. Be very careful how you handle this. There are two of us qualified and regarded as competent to test equipment in school. We face a constant running sore of 'Can you just...'

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The C&G course I went on was appalling. If I hadn't already known what I was doing then I would have still been clueless.

 

The thing that worried me most about mine was the way many of the other folk sitting the test at the end were sweating really simple questions. They all got the bit of paper proclaiming competence, but I suspect many of them would be struggling, especially once the memories of the course have faded a little...

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... to be completed by someone who is combatant to complete the task

 

I know its a typo, but many people have reported combative situations with PAT people who wouldn't know something electrically safe or unsafe if it smacked them squarely in the mouth!

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