Another "Which Kick Drum Mic" question

[BigYinUK]

Hi all

 

And sorry for bringing this topic up again....

 

Before I splash out and spend a not inconsiderable amount of money on a kick drum mic (or two) I thought I'd bounce this off some of the folks here.

 

My engineer and I have been playing with various mics and mic configurations for the band's kick drum (22inch Pacific)

 

Normally we either use the drummer's PG52 or my D112 on its own and neither sound great tbh, but recently we've been experimenting with dual mic'ing.

 

On Friday we used a Beta91A inside and a Beta 52 in the port and the sound was fantastic - Monstrous thump and controllable click, so I think this is the way to go.

 

There's a few combinations that spring to mind, none of which are "cheap". We tried an e902 in the port and that sounded pretty good too but not as good as the Beta 52 imo.

 

Beta91A & Beta 52

Beta91A & Sennheiser e602

Beta91A & Audix D6

 

Or possibly just the D6 which gets rave reviews even used on its own - obviously this is a slightly cheaper option.

 

Using a D6 on its own, where would you put it, deep inside the shell or just in the port?

 

Any suggestions, comments?

 

Regards

 

Jon

[Wilflet]

my preference for dual mic is e901 and e902.

 

if going for just the d6 go for all the way inside- iv just tried to find my manual to find their way of wording it but couldnt find it, but to paraphrase: the diaphragm is very thin compared to mics youd put in the vent (they refer to it as VLM/very low mass diaphragm, thats what they claim makes it so good at transients) which means its a bit more fragile, the manual says (and this is the bit I was hoping to find their wording for) if you put it in the port itself then theres turbulence that can do bad thing for the capsule. Things that make it die.

Supposedly the newer ones (or older ones that have already been sent back to Oregan to be fixed) are more resistant to it than they were, but from conversations Iv had with their repair shop guys and anecdotals from other owners/users positioning them in the vent seems to reduce their life expectancy very considerably (maybe a year or two of semi regular giging) if you put them all the way in they seem as reliable and long lasting as anything else.

[paulears]

I've always liked AKG D112s, but have recently started using an EV RE320, and rather like it!

[dbuckley]

...but have recently started using an EV RE320, and rather like it!

I've long had a soft spot for the RE20 on kick, have not heard the 320 in real life, but given the 320 has a voicing designed for kick drum use, it might be even better. The thing I like about the RE20 is that (and its always fun to try and describe sound!) it is "flat", if even perhaps a bit "flabby", whereas most of the other commonly used kick mics tend to emphasise thud or click at the expense of the other. Which may well be the reason dual micing is popular...

[Stuart91]

It all depends on the sound you are looking for. I've found that a D6 sitting inside the shell gives a deep punchy sound. RE20 to me sounds more "natural", a bit closer to what you'd hear on a Led Zepplin record than more contemporary acts.

 

D6 also has the advantage that you can point it at virtually anything and with a bit of EQ make it sound passable - ideal for the variety of sketchy badly tuned drums that we see at gala day style events.

 

I've not experimented much with dual micing myself, but have been unimpressed by various band engineers who have spent huge amounts of scarce soundcheck time tweaking a kick sound to no real benefit, then end up with time to do little more than a brief line check of the lead vocal mic.

[S&L]

did you try the beta 91 on it's own?

it's sort of passed into folklore in my own head - I remember it as the best sound I ever got, straight out of the box, no treatment and just thrown in the centre casually. but many nights have passed since then and my abilities have improved somewhat - I would love to go back and see if it's the way I remember it.

I think with the amount of money you are considering spending, I would hire what you think you want and try before you buy.

drums are relatively straight forward to get a passable sound - but maybe the hardest thing to get an outstanding sound with - added to which drummers (good ones) are very individual with their drum tastes.

heard a lot of disturbing things about the D6 which I am reading as user error.

[Alec]

I'm a D6 & e901 guy.

 

Started off with the D6, which did a great job by itself, and was generally happiest inside the shell.

 

I kept away from the b52 only because it was such a big chunk of metal

 

With the e901, started off with it alone, but it lacked body, so I added the D6 and reached nirvana! Like you found, it's the combination of thump & click, easily controlled at the desk end.

 

With this configuration I keep the D6 about 2-3cm outside the port, which gives me the right abount of body. My b6 is years old with plenty of gigs under the belt.

 

The only drawback I can see to the e901 is that it's wider than the b91a, and doesn't fit through some drum ports - always a frustration as a house guy. But, of course no problem with a fixed band configuration you know what you're dealing with. And, on the odd occasion where it doesn't fit, the D6 still does a decent job by itself.

 

The real problem is those drummers who insist on having no port - but that's another thread...

[bamba]

I personally use a 91A and D6 combo, and then add in a home made Subkick is needed. its a reliable and quick way of getting a good sound.

[Doug Siddons]

I use 901 and B52 if I possibly can, but quite happy with B52 the 901 is the icing on the cake. As its your own bands kit then getting a hole cut in the drum so the mic can be put inside shouldn't be a problem. If its down to budget then get the B52 only is my opinion.

 

As to the B91 against the E901 not a great deal of difference but avoid buying the earlior B91's if your touring as the external pre amp and mini connection isn't roadworthy!

[Wilflet]

I'm a D6 & e901 guy.

 

 

With this configuration I keep the D6 about 2-3cm outside the port, which gives me the right abount of body. My b6 is years old with plenty of gigs under the belt.

 

The only drawback I can see to the e901 is that it's wider than the b91a, and doesn't fit through some drum ports - always a frustration as a house guy. But, of course no problem with a fixed band configuration you know what you're dealing with. And, on the odd occasion where it doesn't fit, the D6 still does a decent job by itself.

 

The real problem is those drummers who insist on having no port - but that's another thread...

 

all the way out is fine too, I think its just the half in half out that they want to discourage.

 

iv had the same problem with the hole size with the 901- few times had to take the front skin off, put the mic in, pass the cable through the hole, reassemble the drum.

 

 

 

[mjriley]

My personal favourite is e901 in with e602 or b52a out.

[smalljoshua]

I'll throw in a curve ball here. As with everyone else, we use a D6 for the outer mic but an EV ND408 for the inner mic. Feels a lot tighter than the 91 or 901 and fits in every kick hole I've found (even the ported ones).

 

E2A: I discovered this completely by accident when our B91 flaked out and I just grabbed the first mic from the box.

 

Josh

[mojo filters]

It all depends on the sound you are looking for. I've found that a D6 sitting inside the shell gives a deep punchy sound. RE20 to me sounds more "natural", a bit closer to what you'd hear on a Led Zepplin record than more contemporary acts.

 

D6 also has the advantage that you can point it at virtually anything and with a bit of EQ make it sound passable - ideal for the variety of sketchy badly tuned drums that we see at gala day style events.

I've not experimented much with dual micing myself, but have been unimpressed by various band engineers who have spent huge amounts of scarce soundcheck time tweaking a kick sound to no real benefit, then end up with time to do little more than a brief line check of the lead vocal mic.

 

I also am frequently amazed at the amount of time BEs spend in soundcheck trying to get two kick mics to play nicely together - often just using EQ and not accounting for both the polarity and phase issues that inevitably arise when combining two mics like this.

 

If I had more time and a Radial Phazer inserted, or InPhase-type plugin to experiment with, I'd be interested in seeing what I could do with two kick mics. Unfortunately I'm normally amongst the last to soundcheck (at the types of gig where such decent drum mics are used) and with time short due to everyone before me overrunning, I take advantage whenever the kit is shared of the previous work. I listen to each mic and pick the best sounding, then I can quickly move on with more important business such as vox!

 

If I were to buy a kick mic I'd probably choose an Audix D6, simply because it seems to take the least work (ie placement and then EQ) to produce a rock'n'roll kick drum sound. However if I expected to use it for other genres such as jazz, I think the EV RE20 is a better all-rounder, equally capable whether the kick drum resonant head has a port or not.

 

I have no objection to more experienced engineers using more sophisticated techniques. However the trend toward double mics on the kick seems to have led to even more time in soundcheck devoted to repeated kick hits, without producing a noticeable benefit in most cases, at least to my ears. My own technique is driven by the need to soundcheck quickly, so I listen to the kick in the context of the whole kit rather than on its own. That seems to work well enough, and even when not pushed for time, I'd only listen to more than a couple of quick solo kick hits if the band had made a specific request regarding the drum sound.

 

At the end of the day, mics are just an inverted loudspeaker essentially. I was always taught that the ideal loudspeaker would be a single full range driver. Every time more drivers are added the sound quality is slightly reduced. When more than one driver is summing to reproduce the same pass band, that summation inevitably compromises the sound quality - hence doesn't it make sense that exactly the same principles hold true in respect of microphones?

[Stuart91]

We own several D6, an RE20, and a E602. The nice thing about the RE20 is that it has many other uses, it's lovely on brass and a great general purpose mic.

 

D6 is great for "throw and go" situations, and seems remarkably tolerant of poor drum tuning. E602 seems to lack finesse but again gives a reasonably convincing kick sound from almost anything.

 

I share your annoyance at endless kick drum soundchecks, I usually get the player to do a basic groove between kick snare and hats to get started, before adding in the rest of the kit. Even the most docile drummer will get bored of solo kick drum strokes but they'll happily play different patterns for hours on end if required.

[mojo filters]

I think having the drummer play a natural rhythm is far better for tweaking individual drum mics. Unnatural individual strikes or pedal movement doesn't usually represent the force that will be used whilst the drummer's actually playing, hence such doesn't produce the same timbre of sound - which can have a significant effect on how both mic position and EQ affect the sound.