Upgrade for Strand MX desk ?

[Pipkin]

Hi Blue Room ....

 

I am looking at upgrading our current MX24 desk. I really like the MX, and apart from the odd issue with the power supply connector getting pulled out and then broken - it has been very reliable and friendly.

 

However, I am finding that it is becoming a bit limited with it having no scope for moving lights etc, and also one thing I have always found a pain is the way the C/D sequencer is fixed and can't be programmed.

 

I've been offered a Strand 500 series for very little money.

 

The thing is, I had a quick read of the 'Operation Manual' on the strand site, and it seems very complex.

 

I'm sure it's hugely flexible - but is it going to be over the top for what I want.

 

Also - given that I guess they are all getting on age wise - how reliable are they ?

 

I realise I'm asking perhaps some very subjective questions, but I would appreciate peoples thoughts / experiences

 

Thanks

 

Rach.

[Jevans]

The 500 series is/was a great desk - we upgraded to an Ion a couple of years ago but we've still got our 520i in the cupboard, as do most of the venues that had one. There's plenty about so I would say that spares are probably more a matter of buying a donor desk at this point, as I doubt Phillips Strand service them any more, though I could be wrong on that one as we never tried to get ours fixed. We replaced it when it started getting a bit old as it was about time anyway - by the end the fans were a bit dodgy and it crashed on startup sometimes, though we could have replaced the fans easily enough.

 

It is indeed a complex beast, being a full command line based tracking console as opposed to two scene preset with memories, but if you need to move up to a desk with movers, tracking and multiple cuestacks then it was the standard not so long ago before the Eos series took over. Depends a little on how much you need these features and how much you're willing to spend - there are new options below the Eos series such as the Zero 88 Jester ML (much as I hate it) and the Strand 250ML (of which I have no experience) amongst others.

 

Perhaps if you only need movers and what have you on occasion but are mostly happy with the MX24 then you could look at using a computer based system when you need it such as MagicQ MagicDMX or Avo Titan One, both of which are <£100. If you're used to command line desks like the 500/Eos series they do take a bit of getting used to though.

[gibbothegreat]

...and the Strand 250ML...

Regretfully, I'd have to say steer clear of this, for now at least. Perhaps like the OP, I wanted a really simple desk with moving light capacity in a compact format. This looked like it could fit the bill, but I'm sad to say it's buggy and inconsistent, and Strand Philip's support is pretty patchy - there have been user requests and, more worryingly, known bugs which have gone unaddressed for months at a time, although for some others they have reacted quickly enough.

[Pipkin]

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

I should have added a few things to my first post ....

 

We currently have the 24 channels from the MX feeding an LD90.

 

The LD90 then feeds 46 outlets around the venue.

 

However - to get the 46 into 24, a resourceful chap (who is no longer with us) devised his own patch panel, using the C13 / C14 type IEC connectors.

 

There are two problems with this...

 

1 - It's a bit confusing for people not familiar with it. Some of the 24 ccts are not patched at all - just hardwired. Some of the ccts are patched and hardwired. And some are only patched.

 

In fairness - once you understand it, it has worked very well, with sound reasoning behind why it was done like that

 

2 - The C13/14 outlets aren't up to the current rating of the LD90 MCBs, and this has been flagged by our electrical inspectors.

 

It has been like this for years, and no one has ever given it a thought, and it has never given any problem, and there is no sign at all of any overloading / discolouration etc.

 

But the inspector is correct - it isn't right.

 

 

Now one option is to downsize the 24 MCBs .....

 

But it struck me, that if we could get hold of another LD90 we could remove the patch panel - fit the LD90 and then just have 48 direct ccts, as well as giving us some resilience by having multiple racks.

 

Which (finally) brings me around to the need to change the control desk, as we want to expand from 24 channels to 48 (dimming) as well as being able to run the moving lights.

 

We currently run the moving lights on a rather basic 'disco' type desk we picked up from CPC in a panic a couple of years back when we needed them for a panto. It's not ideal having two lighting desks.

 

I'd like to keep the MX24 for using to do basic lighting training on, as I think it is one of the easiest desks I've come across to pick up in under five mins.

 

 

But I'm very much feeling like I'm in a sweet shop when it comes to choosing a new desk. Problem is, I don't know what the sweets I'm looking at taste like.

[Bryson]

A dimmer per circuit is certainly the ideal. Bear in mind that you may have to upgrade the overall power supply in order to meet code, though.

 

I thought LD90s generally came with 10A breakers - which would suit the C13 connectors just fine, no?

 

In terms of modern equivalents to the MX: the ETC Smartfade ML is aimed at that market, although people generally find it a bit more complex to operate than ETC claim it is. Certainly worth a look.

 

The Element is a hell of a lot of console for the money, but may be beyond your price range. It would certainly be my choice if the budget allowed.

[DrV]

Don't forget to take into account where you will get your hard power from for the movers. Although you can configure an LD90 channel as non-dim it still goes via the triac. If the 48 sockets are your only outlets then hard patching will prevent you from sending hard power to them

Dave

[Pipkin]

You've got me thinking regarding the hard patching ....

 

I hadn't thought about getting 'hard power' to them

 

What do people generally do about this ?

 

Do you run a 13A outlet as well ? Or does that get confusing ?

 

 

I'm told the breakers in the LD90 are 13A - which I didn't even know existed !

[DrV]

The breakers on the ones I have seen are indeed ABB C13 types.

 

I think the part was S271/C13 or S201/C13.

 

Dave

[chelgrian]

Do you run a 13A outlet as well ? Or does that get confusing ?

 

Generally 16A Ceeform for a couple of reasons:

 

- Make them different from dimmed channels which tend to be on 15A plugs.

 

- They aren't fused and you have (or should have) and MCB per channel it's much easier just to reset the MCB at the distro end than to have to get up in the air to change the fuse in a 13A plug.

[Pipkin]

Do you run a 13A outlet as well ? Or does that get confusing ?

 

Generally 16A Ceeform for a couple of reasons:

 

- Make them different from dimmed channels which tend to be on 15A plugs.

 

- They aren't fused and you have (or should have) and MCB per channel it's much easier just to reset the MCB at the distro end than to have to get up in the air to change the fuse in a 13A plug.

 

We've been advised to use the 16A CEEFORM for the dimmed channels, as the existing round pin plugs we have don't have shrouded pins.

[chelgrian]

We've been advised to use the 16A CEEFORM for the dimmed channels, as the existing round pin plugs we have don't have shrouded pins.

 

What is the risk an entirely shrouded connector is supposed to mitigate? The only one I can think of is standing on an upturned example of a plug sitting on the floor. You can get 15A connectors with shrouds on the live and neutral such that no live metal is ever exposed during mating for example http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/2963717/ it's going to be a lot cheaper re-terminating your lantern stock with these than it will be to change any installed wiring to 16A ceeforms.

 

Apart from that even black 16A ceeforms are marginally cheaper than 15A plugs these days presumably due to economies of scale in manufacturing. So for new installs it makes some sense to use ceeform however if you have an existing 15A installation there is no reason to change it on safety grounds.

[Jevans]

We've been advised to use the 16A CEEFORM for the dimmed channels, as the existing round pin plugs we have don't have shrouded pins.

 

What is the risk an entirely shrouded connector is supposed to mitigate?

 

The risk of curling your hand around an old 15A and being able to bridge L/N with your little finger and thumb as you pull it out when live. Been there, done that, don't want to do it again.

That said I think I've probably sustained a far greater number of scratches from snapping the covers on 16A plugs back onto my fingers ;)

[Pipkin]

I've spoken with the engineer who inspected the installation this morning ....

 

He said that as well as the plugs on the lamps having no shrouded pins, they are also 5A round pin - not 15A round pin.

 

This causes us to fail on the 13A MCB in the dimmer !

 

Everywhere I turn all I see is problems this morning !

 

So - if we replace the dimming outlets with 16A black ceeform (this seems to be what would be done on a new install ?? ) What should we use for any 'hard power' ?

 

I get the point about not wanting to use a 13A normal outlet due to it having a fuse. But are there any other suitable outlets ?

[jbrown96]

From what I know (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) the current standard is to install dimming circuits on 15 amp round pins and hard power on 16 amp ceeform. If you get equipment in from hire companies this from my experience is the norm.

If you are looking for 15amp sleeved round pin plugs then look at Permaplug model HDPT15B it would appear that Duraplugs are currently un-sleeved.

[sguy42]

I've spoken with the engineer who inspected the installation this morning ....

 

He said that as well as the plugs on the lamps having no shrouded pins, they are also 5A round pin - not 15A round pin.

 

This causes us to fail on the 13A MCB in the dimmer !

 

Everywhere I turn all I see is problems this morning !

 

So - if we replace the dimming outlets with 16A black ceeform (this seems to be what would be done on a new install ?? ) What should we use for any 'hard power' ?

 

I get the point about not wanting to use a 13A normal outlet due to it having a fuse. But are there any other suitable outlets ?

 

 

If you're currently wired on 5A, please also check the size of your cabling it may be undersized for 15A/16A.

 

 

This is not uncommon in older venues and was safe if the original dimmers were fused at 5A, e.g. the 5A version of the Tempus, and only becomes an issue when the dimmers are changed (and often overlooked), I'm just trying to sort out a similar problem myself.

 

sguy42