razor Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Hi All In the past I have been given the impression that use ofsafety chains as a secondary hanging point for lanterns is no longer permittedand that we have to use cables. I was wondering is someone could let me know if it is indeedillegal requirement to use cables now here in the UK and if so where can I findthe official documents to prove it. I have just started at a local school asthere theatre tech and as you can imagine all the lanterns have got chains. I amtrying to convince the powers at be to invest in cables but they have asked forproof that we need them. Thanks for all the help.
indyld Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Check the results from this search: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?gws_rd=ssl#q=site:blue-room.org.uk+safety+chains+bonds Edit: dodgy link pasting.
top-cat Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 In lieu of searching through the rest of the threads: No you don't need SWR (cable) instead of chains. Chains are fine. But you can't use any old bit of chain. The chain needs to be able to take the load of the lantern, even if the square edge of the lantern ends up on the side of the link of the chain. That said you can decide for yourself if the safety is even necessary. What is it protecting against? What is the likelihood of that happening at all? Is there any other way you could mitigate the risk? Next thing to do is inspect your safety chains. Do they look fit for use? Are they in good condition? Are there any signs of damage / wear / corrosion etc? In my opinion safety bonds are preferable to chains in rigs where things are swapped around all the time but in a fixed rig, chains are no issue. Don't bother buying things you don't need!
paulears Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 The old advice was that you don't need a safety at all, but common sense says that accidents do happen, so having something just in case is sensible. If you buy new, then you will find they are all safety bonds - the wire type, and they have markings showing how strong they are. If you have old chains that are in working order, then carry on using them. TC mentioned corrosion. Loads of mine are rusty - sea air does it pretty quickly but it's surface rust, and superficial. Since the 70s, the chains in common use have welded shut links, up until then, they tended to use a folded link, although I've never broken one. Toilet type chain is very weak - so no use for stopping things fall. Some people do go over the top and muck out everything and start again, but we're really talking about silly accidents. I'd bet there are few people who've been doing this lark in theatres for a while who have not dropped a bar in and discovered something hanging that hasn't had the clamp done up - and worse still is when you know it was you. Equally, I'd bet that many people have flown a bar in and had it bump into flats, or other kit on the next bar - it just takes those two events to happen together. The insecure light gets flipped off the bar ......... easy done! In your school, if the lights all have chains, that is fine. Just replace a few each year, but you won't find anything that says you MUST swap chains for bonds, because you don't have to. When new rules come in that require identification and labelling, the manufacturers just do it, but it's not applied to old stuff, just new.
Jivemaster Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 A good condition bond is better than no bond, first try to see that every lantern has a bond, chain or wire, securely fitted
bigclive Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 My thoughts are that if it is an existing installation then it may well have been fitted with chains and is probably perfectly safe with them. If adding new lights or doing general maintenance then you can gradually swap the chains for wires over a period of time.
mattlad564 Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 I've been told that the chains will no longer pass a health and safety inspection. They need to be the cable ones. We changed all of ours and having seen a lights clamp fail and it being held up with a the cable ones I prefer the look of them. Feel a lot better with people underneath them
dosxuk Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 I've been told that the chains will no longer pass a health and safety inspection. Inspection by whom? having seen a lights clamp fail Did the clamp fail, or did the person putting the light up fail? If the clamp failed "health & safety" have got more to look into at your school than just the safety bonds.
mattlad564 Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 The health and safety inspectors for the school. The other school I work for have had the same problem. It wasn't the clamp per say. It was the bolt holding it to the yoke was loose. A curtain was pulled past it and it spun which undid it the rest of the way
Shez Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 It was the bolt holding it to the yoke was loose. A curtain was pulled past it and it spun which undid it the rest of the wayA people failure then. Personally I can't see how a lantern could spin much more than about one complete turn or so without being stopped by its mains cable - if the nut / bolt was so loose that that's all it took, that's a pretty impressive failure!
ImagineerTom Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 The most important lesson you can learn in this business is "The 'elf n safety inspectors say no" is the most abused phrase ever. IF a REAL H&S officer has decided that something is unacceptable they will provide a complete explanation as to why - ie "this contravenes regulation XYZ" or "The calculations show this isn't appropriate" or "there's a prohibition notice against doing this" - You also need to check that they are independent of their recommendations; plenty of times a company have advised a venue that something is "illegal" or "against H&S" and that they just happen to sell a new version you could buy......
mattlad564 Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 Yes well the muppet who rigged it now no longer rigs
paulears Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 Trouble is, the idiots very often don't have to give a reason because their position gives them more pips on their shoulders. If this is the case, simply put in the order and replace them all, and have a peaceful life. My experience is that these people have little knowledge and big mouthes. Just order the bonds, spend some time swapping them and keep the old chains, because they're useful for all sorts of things. I've never seen a bolt undo and drop with one turn, that one turn would have been the very LAST turn, wouldn't it, and nobody spotted it on the last thread - as said above, it's a people and supervision issue. For a chain to fail an inspection, you would need to have proper criteria for a test. Is the H&S bod sufficiently technical to draw up an assessment of the chain. Surface rust is not, in my opinion, a problem. An inspection, looking for open links, or corroded areas that impact on the strength makes sense - but do you really want to do it? I know where stored flats are hung on bars with loads of 50 year chains - it's not considered a risk, and I even know one place where the pros wall is attached to the structure at the top with a huge varnished lump of rope - probably put in in the late 1800s. I doubt anyone knows it's even doing the job as it can't be seen from the ground at all.
sandall Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 It wasn't the clamp per say. It was the bolt holding it to the yoke was loose. Sounds unlikely, but I once hired a follow-spot (with an ordinary stand-spigot, rather than a proper follow-spot one) to a school. Within 2 days they had managed to wind the bolt right out of the spigot (raising the lantern nearly an inch in the process, as the bolt was still firmly screwed into the yoke) & nearly drop the lot over the gallery handrail onto audience below!! As for chains; most of my small lanterns have them, as they don't spring off like bonds, but I must confess to dropping a few chains in my time (even if not as many as colour-frames). Points to consider - 1/. An unfastened chain WILL eventually fall off without warning (apart from the rattle above your head that prompts you to look up as it drops); a bond probably won't, unless disturbed (if it wasn't clipped to the lantern it probably fell off while you were rigging). 2/. A bond falling on your head MIGHT hurt; a chain falling on your head WILL hurt.
bigclive Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 It was the bolt holding it to the yoke was loose. A curtain was pulled past it and it spun which undid it the rest of the wayA people failure then. Personally I can't see how a lantern could spin much more than about one complete turn or so without being stopped by its mains cable - if the nut / bolt was so loose that that's all it took, that's a pretty impressive failure! Not to mention the lights vicinity to a drape. Wire bonds.... Anyone ever stabbed themselves on a loose strand at the crimp or had a bond brush past their arm and rip some hairs out on the way past? Chains never did that. I think an unfastened bond is just as likely to fall as an unfastened chain if not more, since chains tend to drape while bonds tend to wang over edges, and either way it's the carabiner that's going to hurt most. (PS, I think I may just have sneaked a naughty word in through the Blueroom filter by using American slang.)
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