Trilite SWLs

[lonemorf]

Hi all,

As per my other threads, I am putting together a rig for my daughters school.

Its not going to be permanently installed, and will be rolled out for use as needed (they are doing about 3 shows/events per year at the moment).

As it sits, with the current kit I have accumulated, repaired, rescued etc etc, I have 8 Goldenscan HPEs, and 4 Combicolours that I would want flown.

I want to keep it fairly "modular", so things can be put together differently, so I was thinking of using 4x 1mtr sections of trilite, so I can put up 4 seperate points, 2 larger ones , or 3 then 1, or a straight run of 4 meters.

 

The roof in the building is I beam, and I can use a combination of lindaptors, or beam clamps to attach - the SWL of those beams is being verified - but we are looking at at least 125kg per hanging point from what I have been told on a preliminary basis.

 

So, my question is, how much weight can a single 1mtr length of trilite (appreciate there is probably a fair chunk of manufacturer variance here - I havent purchased yet, am looking for some 2nd hand stuff atm) hold happily - 2 GS3s and a combicolour? As the lengths increase, Im guessing we are looking at deflection encroaching?

 

Any thoughts, advice etc etc?

 

Also, slightly off topic - in the event these need to go on stands - what stands can viably lift 2 or 4 GS3s?

 

Cheers

[david.elsbury]

I would suggest you pay a structural engineer to advise you of loadings etc. If you can't afford it I would suggest that you rethink your plans... if it fails or falls down then you will be liable for any injuries or death caused. Loading tables are available for trilite and if you don't know how to find and interpret these you aren't competent to do the work in my opinion.

[Brian]

...appreciate there is probably a fair chunk of manufacturer variance here...

 

Er, no there isn't. If it's Trilite then it's made by Optikinetics and their loading charts will apply. If it's random triangular truss from unknown makers then you're on your own.

[ImagineerTom]

....though if you're buying second-hand truss then the dents and dings in it (not to mention the hairline cracks caused by shock loads) will have a massive impact on its structural stability and reliability.

 

I have to ask - why are you saddling a school with a load of shonky, out-of-date kit (the goldenscan is nearly 20 years old) and cobbled-together half-ass rigging none of which will teach them anything transferable to the outside world (at 40kg each no school child is going to be rigging these!), will essentially only be operable and maintainable by you and none of which is really very practical (or good) at theatrical use?

[lonemorf]

wowser.

 

I would suggest you pay a structural engineer to advise you of loadings etc. If you can't afford it I would suggest that you rethink your plans... if it fails or falls down then you will be liable for any injuries or death caused. Loading tables are available for trilite and if you don't know how to find and interpret these you aren't competent to do the work in my opinion.

There is indeed a structural engineer doing this :) Not being daft ;)

 

Er, no there isn't. If it's Trilite then it's made by Optikinetics and their loading charts will apply. If it's random triangular truss from unknown makers then you're on your own.

Bargain - thats what I wanted to know - so if I get "trilite" trilite, Im all good - if its other, then Im not :)

 

I have to ask - why are you saddling a school with a load of shonky, out-of-date kit (the goldenscan is nearly 20 years old) and cobbled-together half-ass rigging none of which will teach them anything transferable to the outside world (at 40kg each no school child is going to be rigging these!), will essentially only be operable and maintainable by you and none of which is really very practical (or good) at theatrical use?

This is always the fun discussion.

They have ZERO budget, and I am funding this entirely out of my own pocket, to work alongside the extra curricular clubs that other parents and entities run. It may be half assed, it may be old, but this isnt about teaching skills in the tech industry (although I hope some take an interest, and perhaps go on to the BRIT academy etc). This is about them having the capacity to put on a half decent event. Yes, I will end up supervising/running that aspect - which is a demand I know - but if nobody does anything, it will have nothing instead!

I know the kit is old, but funding this out my own pocket is a hoot - I would love to go and buy a load of new (even nearly new) moving heads, with shiny everything, but I cannot afford it. The GS3 is a workhorse of a fixture, with bloody good output, and a lot of features! I got 10 for next to nothing, in ###### condition, butchered 2 to make 8 good ones, and then spent ages stripping and cleaning them all off. Despite its age, its a fairly decent setup - something I hope I can be proud of. Unless you know of any hire or event companies willing to donate kit for nowt, this is as far as my already piss poor budget will allow me to stretch!

Either way, Im not "saddling the school" with it - I am trying for once in my life to be nice (this is a rarity ;) )

[top-cat]

 

Bargain - thats what I wanted to know - so if I get "trilite" trilite, Im all good - if its other, then Im not :)

 

 

Errr it's either Trilite or it isn't. Trilite is a brand of truss from Opti. If it's not, it's not Trilite and the question is void. If you are asking generally about aluminium lightweight triangle truss, it will still have a brand and name and you'll be able to use that info to find the rating for it. If that information wasn't available it couldn't be legally used for lifting which would make it quite pointless.

[lonemorf]

So I need to rephrase my question a little clearly.

So I am wanting to avoid shonky unknowns, and concentrate on locating Opti Trilite? Are there other brands that are recommended, and others that are "to be avoided"?

Whatever I end up with, it has to be safe, to a spec that meets my criteria above, and useable. I am trying to avoid spending twice here, hence the clearly open ended and vague question.

[ImagineerTom]

You'll not provide anything beyond some pretty wiggly beams with the kit you've spec'd - it's no-where near "theatre" grade and the ongoing maintenance/operational/rigging costs will quickly make it unviable.

 

You're clearly way way out of your depth when it comes to rigging this kit - there's no way the school will allow you to do what you're currently proposing to do and I dread to think how you're going to deal with the insurance issues (no insurer I know would provide liability cover for ancient kit on recycled truss designed by someone who had to ask really basic questions on the internet) there's genuinely so many massive fundamental problems with the project as you currently propose that it's really not going to happen.

 

It's great that you want to get involved and help inspire the next generation, but instead of doing it this way why don't you organise a couple of fundraising events (cliche'd I admit but at schools disco's and concerts are sure-fire money-makers) to raise a little bit of cash which you then spend on getting some proper kit that's safe, usable and vaguely industry standard so that others can learn from it. £200 will rent you 4 Mac 250' wash's (ok not the most modern units but much more relevant and usable than the golden scans) along with some suitable stands and all the cabling you need for a week. They are a lot closer to "theatre grade" lighting, have beam-angles and features much more relevant to theatre use and would do more to carry an actual theatrical production than a load of Goldenscans would. £50 will buy you an LED wash light that's considerably more usable in a typical theatre show than a combi-colour and whilst not pro-grade it would certainly represent a very wise investment as a piece of equipment that could be regularly used in a wide variety of shows.

[lonemorf]

Fair comment.

The reality is, Im not too far down this road - and I can flip these scans for already more than I paid for them (seemingly there is a demand for them on Ebay!), which can fund different kit. My issue is, I do not want recurring cost - as that will eat into any funds raised on a repeating basis. I got these GS HPEs for literally next to nothing - so I can "trade up" if needed. Im guessing a thread on the lighting forum would be a good place to start on that to see if there is a general consensus.

If new truss is the only way to do this, then new truss it is - it will just have to wait a few months.

 

At the end of the day, I am here first, not after I have killed a few kids, and ended up in the clink - I want to do this as well as it can be done, but on the understanding I have a very very small budget - and want the very best I can for it.

FWIW, most of these shows are dance shows, and the like - its not focussed on theatrical work, else I would have picked up dimmers and quartets - those I can see going pretty cheap!

 

I appreciate the input gents - both negative and positive - I need to emphasise, I am not some gung-ho lunatic, everything does indeed have to be done properly, and if that means it has to wait, it will wait. If anyone has the remotest desire to help me out offline, I would truly appreciate any input/assistance offered.

Thanks again.

[top-cat]

Sometimes, Tom; people WILL do something, no matter how many suggestions that it may not be a good idea.

Jim - it's a hard one. Wanting to help is great, wanting your kids drama productions to look as 'pro' as possible is a good thing, but people will wonder what your motivation is. Liability has become a huge issue (such that I firmed up a big job last year with a school and turned it down in the end because I just wasn't 100% convinced that my insurance was comprehensive enough and I wasn't in a position to pay to make it so) but being that your daughter may be in the cast, your belief in making the stage the safest place possible for all the users of the stage should be priority number one. Plenty of people start toying with rigging and staging issues that don't really understand, I personally stood about 15 feet away from a girl being very nearly killed outright when some 'common sense' rigging by some church 'technicians' didn't go how it was supposed to.

 

Personally I'm not going to get into Tom's argument of whether the fixtures in question meet your need. I don't think they do either, but you get what you're given in some situations and if you're willing to spend your own money giving whatever you can to the school, that is admirable. Just remember, the school are used to nothing so will not be bothered going back to nothing. If anything happens in this process that concerns them, they will block it out and prevent it because it's not worth the hassle or the court case that goes with it. And by god, if I had a parent installing some battered old truss he knew nothing about onto my roof beams, to hang some heavy lights on, (GS3 weighing quite a bit!) for the sake of 2 or 3 drama performances a year.... I'd be concerned.

 

You don't know anything about this truss, you've admitted that. Do you honestly want to take faith in some old battered truss you've been handed, to hang over the heads of kids? Really? I might, Tom might.. but we know what we're looking for when we inspect it. We know what things will affect it and what might cause it to fail, and the result of that is it wouldn't take much for us to say no. You're taking somebody's word for it and you're own good intentions. But unfortunately good intentions have never changed physics (and nor has anything else).

 

I hope you can see I'm not being a holier than thou bishop about this. When in your first post you said "stands", I think you were bang on the money. Some old manfrottos, or perhaps some modern chinese equivalents, in the corners of the stage, would be far better suited. The risk is a long way reduced. If you don't know enough about truss to select the right product or understand it's capacity rating, you simply don't know enough to hang it in the air. That's academic. Stands are a great and generally safer way of suspending equipment, in any easy-to-get-down manner, that does not place it direct over the heads of your kids. And that's a huge bonus.

 

If a dodgy lighting fixture electrocuted a pupil, or a dodgy hanging yoke failed and sent all 60kg (?) of a GS3 onto somebody's head, or an entire truss fell down from beam clamps designed for something else... the school would take you to the cleaners to protect their own back sides. Any favours you'd done them would be forgotten in an instance to protect their own finances and reputation, and you'd be left to fight on your own. The process would no doubt leave you in severe financial trouble and probably extremely stressed too. Is this a situation you want to chance with? Every company who installs kit into venues faces this dilemma, but at least they are (A) covered by purpose designed insurance for such outcomes, and (B) are earning sufficient money to make the risk acceptable. You have neither.

 

You just have to look at the best and worst possible situations and decide if the former justifies the latter. From what you'd described, I wouldn't think it did.

 

I would strongly consider taking your fixtures, and your good intentions, and pushing them into an installation method that places much less risk on others and keeps you well above the flood line.

[lonemorf]

Thanks Top-Cat.

Thats the kind of opinionated response I can get on board with :)

Inexperienced people meet professionals, and its always easy for the professionals to come off as "holier than thou" - I am in the same boat as you but in a different arena (critical power).

 

To be really honest - stands are probably my preference too - one hell of a lot easier to use! Just finding a decent stand that can hold up decent weight is proving taxing (it was my original thought).

Do you have any suggestions as to a stand "man enough* to accomodate a pair of these (working on the assumption that I keep them?)

 

EDIT:

To clarify, "Inexperienced people meet professionals, and its always easy for the professionals to come off as "holier than thou"......you didnt :)

[ImagineerTom]

Buying 4 bits of 1m tri-chord truss + all the paraphinalia you need to rig them properly isn't going to give you any change from £600 - enough to rent the macs-n-stands for 3 separate shows.

 

If you're adamant you don't want to rent kit then look at the LED light option - they're no good for face lighting but very good at providing colour washes to a stage. Half a dozen cheap LED parcans will rig to the existing venue bars, can (including all the cabling and paraphernalia) cost you less than half what the trussing will cost and will (if you use your existing "conventional" lights for face lighting) give you an absolutely unbeatable bang for your buck.

[lonemorf]

Thanks Tom.

I will throw a thread up in Lighting - probably tomorrow now, its getting on a bit for me, Getting old :(

[Jivemaster]

My big issue with "trilite" is that ANY three tube truss gets called "trilite" but only the truss made by Optikinetics is real Trilite. There is NO WAY to know the safe loading of any of the other trusses from the real trilite loading tables which I did once find on the web.

 

Especially for things in the roof you would be well advised to get an insured structural engineer on your team to check structural safety of all parts and all the rigging. You NEED a professionally certified safe starting position at which to hand the installation over to the school authorities as their responsibility.

 

For lighting you could do a lot worse than buy 10 to 50 PAR cans and an assortment of beam angle lamps, new. they are light enough for students to carry and rig, and very common in the industry.

[lonemorf]

My big issue with "trilite" is that ANY three tube truss gets called "trilite" but only the truss made by Optikinetics is real Trilite™. There is NO WAY to know the safe loading of any of the other trusses from the real trilite loading tables which I did once find on the web.

 

And thats where my initial question I think came from.

 

 

From the input on this thread, and Top-Cat really swung it for me - I am going to look at stands.

I will be throwing a thread in lighting tomorrow probably, purely based on Toms input. Without wanting to start on that here in too much details - I do really love the complexity and effect that the GS's offer - but I can certainly punt them on, or punt some of them on etc etc, and then buy some of the kit that you and Tom have bought into play.

 

Thanks for the input on this gents. This is, in my view, a prime example of why forums like this work so well. Just need to find decent enough yet affordable stands now :)