Philippe Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hey everyone, We are currently touring wit some theater shows with circusacts in it.Like a silk and a hoop both need a single point rigg with a swivel and we use 11 mm non stretching rope.All our equipment is certified safety factor 10. Some parts only safety factor 7 ( Circus stuff bought in France).So if we want to rigg a person ( assume 100Kg.) we need a point load 1000 Kg.This is a verry difficult thing to provide for most theaters we work in. There are some things not clear for us.I give some examples and thoughts. Point load provided by the venue = 250Kg.This means WWL = 250kg. = 250 Kg x industrial safety factor 5 = Breaking load 1250 Kg. May I assume this point is safe to rigg my stuff to this point ?Or do we really need a WWL 1000Kg. as a rigg point? Philippe DigneffeFor Artcenter CampoBelgium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImagineerTom Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Performers should NEVER be rigged from a single point unless that single point is specifically designed for circus use. There should ALWAYS be a second point used (even if it's only as a safety) Also the loading depends on what the performers are doing - just climbing silks then 100kg is ok but if they are doing drops and tumbles then you need a much stronger point because the forces are much greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hi Tom, Thanks for your quick reply.But I am afraid there it is no useful information in for me personally. Let me explain.We only can use ONE rigg point. Between rigg point and silk or hoop there is a SWIVEL.A SWIVEL allows the performer to turn around his axis endless.So a second rigg point is not a option.Maybe between the Swivel and a the truss/grid/.... But yes you have a reason by saying we are working with dynamic weights.The performer is working around the silk / hoop. Facts;- performer 100 Kg- load is dynamic- safety factor = x10- rigg point is WWL ? Kg. / Breaking load ? Kg. Thanks,`Philippe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImagineerTom Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I come from a circus family, I've rigged hundreds of circus performers. All of YOUR rigging must be at least 2 distinct points - the swivel & silks are the performers own equipment; we are not talking about those. Your rigging point must have at least TWO points to hang the equipment under it. It is crazy for anyone to answer your questions on an internet forum because there are too many variables that we do not know. You MUST get a proper PROFESSIONAL rigger who has experience installing rigging for circus performers to check each location you perform in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OllieDuff Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 1392204638[/url]' post='492800']Hey everyone, We are currently touring wit some theater shows with circusacts in it.Like a silk and a hoop both need a single point rigg with a swivel and we use 11 mm non stretching rope.All our equipment is certified safety factor 10. Some parts only safety factor 7 ( Circus stuff bought in France).So if we want to rigg a person ( assume 100Kg.) we need a point load 1000 Kg.This is a verry difficult thing to provide for most theaters we work in. There are some things not clear for us.I give some examples and thoughts. Point load provided by the venue = 250Kg.This means WWL = 250kg. = 250 Kg x industrial safety factor 5 = Breaking load 1250 Kg. May I assume this point is safe to rigg my stuff to this point ?Or do we really need a WWL 1000Kg. as a rigg point? Philippe DigneffeFor Artcenter CampoBelgium. Your questions are straying into the realms of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Pay a proper rigging company to figure this out, or don't do the circus acts. You're unlikely to get your answers here because people who post here and are competent to work out the answers normally charge a whole load of money to consult on this kind of thing. Because it's a specialised, safety critical skill set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trussmonkey Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I was going to write a long explanation of how roof loadings work, factors of safety, single point suspensions for performers but I realised that I there isnt enough space on the internet for me to fit it all in !!! Pay the money and get an experienced rigger who does this everyday (I can recommend a couple for you if you want). Dont take chances. best TM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seano Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I was going to write a long explanation of how roof loadings work, factors of safety, single point suspensions for performers but I realised that I there isnt enough space on the internet for me to fit it all in !!! I was going to write something similar to what you just said and didn't even manage that. ;) A good book on general rigging would be worth a read for the OP, this Chris Higgs book perhaps: clicky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave m Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 would any UK venue allow him to rig a single point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seano Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 would any UK venue allow him to rig a single point?Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImagineerTom Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Yes, because a) most venues don't have the specialist expertise in house to know about broader rigging practises, much less the special needs of performer rigger and even less so the particular needs of individual specialities and tricks within the various disciplines b) there are times when a single point is acceptable - I've done shows where a silk / hoop / rope is used purely to climb up and down (no tricks or dynamic movement) in a building with only 4m roof height so a single point was acceptable. There's a venue/club in london that hosts regular circus performances which has a handful of "single-point" points put in, however these were designed by one of the most respected performer rigging people in the business (who did the sums!) and which were designed specifically for performer use; Likewise in most circus tents and big name circus shows. As I mentioned above if what you're fixing to has been specifically designed for circus/performer flying in mind then it will have the unique safety considerations built in to it already. My issue here is not so much the number of points but rather that the OP is taking on a specialist task which can very easily result in fatal injury and yet doesn't even understand the most basic maths or terminology, the performers are literally entrusting their lives to the rigger and so it's essential he has some grasp of the job. A "proper" circus rigger is surprisingly cheap (on a touring show they'll be on £500/week) yet will have all the skills, experience and knowledge needed to instinctively install safe, secure, suitable rigging points for all the circus performers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 To everyone, Thanks for the positive and very clears answers. I do not pretend to be a professional rigger.Far from this !But my question posted about rigging a silk/hoop is a continuous search to prevent making stupid decisions; In the past I always did have a second safety point rigged.I try always to have an open talk ( mail, tech rider, ...) with the local technician before I start to rigg.I always ask the venue try's to find out the point load. ( This is often a thing many theaters do not know ! )For sure I will buy the book about rigging ( thanks for this tip !) In my search I still do not know if my thoughts are correct.Maybe I did better aks my question in a different way ( what if I rigg a sandbag of 100Kg into the grid). Please do not understand me wrong.I am following this forum sinds 2008.And my aim is, I WANT TO LEARN THINGS.Again and again.After 26 years of making productions and touring I get again and again surprised and challenged by questions of the artist.And the rigging of a circus act was on of them. So far for now.Of to buy the book and I will take contact with a professional Belgium rigger to find out about my question. All the best,Philippe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azlan Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 In my search I still do not know if my thoughts are correct.Maybe I did better aks my question in a different way ( what if I rigg a sandbag of 100Kg into the grid). this is exactly what concerns people, the loading of a 100kg sandbag hanging from a point is very different to a person moving up and down, potential at some speed. I'm not going to tell you how to calculate the loading's, that would be for someone competent to take you through, but remember some basic physics to understand why the loading can potentially be much greater than you think... Force = mass x acceleration so your 100kg person could apply a much greater force to the point than you initially expect. on top of that, there are regulations including LOLER (lifting operations and lifting equipment regulations) and PUWER (Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations) which dictate statutory systems of work, as well as industry best practice, which all need to be taken into account. if you want to learn more about rigging, maybe try looking in the training and qualifications section of this forum at the rigging courses, and take one as an introduction to the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timsabre Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 on top of that, there are regulations including LOLER (lifting operations and lifting equipment regulations) and PUWER (Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations) which dictate statutory systems of work, as well as industry best practice, which all need to be taken into account. Philippe is in Belgium, so these UK regulations will not apply there, but there will probably be something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathanhill Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 on top of that, there are regulations including LOLER (lifting operations and lifting equipment regulations) and PUWER (Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations) which dictate statutory systems of work, as well as industry best practice, which all need to be taken into account. LOLER and PUWER will not apply to Phillipe as he is based in Belgium. e2a: beat by Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Our venue had it's first aerialist performer last year, and as pretty well nothing is our fairly large venue is 'normal', anything weird with load points and lifting, I pass straight to the engineering firm who look after the venue. Nothing is labelled in the roof space, and when people send in specs detail what they wish to hang, and where - I just send it to them, and they respond with yes or no - and suggest alternatives if one is available. The first aerialist had a small flight case, with all his kit, showed us where he wanted to hang, and the engineer called back and said he'd be happy with a static hang of 350Kg from that point, of we were talking about a motor at that point. He had no idea what an aerialist was, but suggested the office produce a short document detailing the availability of a point capable of a static load of 350Kg, and asking the visitor to confirm this was acceptable - which is what we did, and the performer signed it. They suggested that we should also add a sentence to confirm they are professionally competent to assess the load point and carry out the rigging on their own responsibility. Now, I've no idea if this document would have been legally watertight, but we did our best. We then let them rig their equipment to the building steelwork, and we stood back. They seemed happy with this arrangement - but we'll never know if our precautions were enough. Whenever we have amateurs in the venue who wish to do circus style stuff outside our area of knowledge, we just get a guy from the circus down the road to come in and rig kit. From seeing this guy work over the years, I notice that some things I personally would have gone a little light on, he beefs up, but other things I'd have perhaps doubled up on, they don't. This to me, suggests that circus style rigging is just so different from what I personally do, that I'd rather avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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