Rescue from Tallescope

[Tom]

I see that the ABTT recently arranged a couple of demonstrations of Aluminium Access Products new kit of parts for achieving rescue from the basket of a 'Scope.

 

According to the ABTT journal, this is the system that both the ABTT and HSE have been pushing for.

 

Did anybody attend either of these and if so would they like to explain how the system works and what they thought of it?

 

They have arranged another demo at the Curve in Leicester this Friday 26th April if anybody is interested.

 

PLEASE can we not get into another discussion about the whys and wherefores of 'scope usage or speculation about how this or other systems of rescue from a 'scope might work.

 

Thanks

T

[gibbothegreat]

I was at one in Pitlochry in February. I'll preface this by saying that this is my recollection of it, and also that at this stage the idea was not to present the finished product and processes, but to get a motley collection of techs from all walks of life to look at this and find any flaws.

 

Essentially, it consists of: extension legs which can be clamped onto the existing base (on the side where the basket will end up when lowered) to shift the centre of gravity, and a winch on a board on the lowest rung of the base. In the event of needing to do a rescue, the legs are attached and clamped in place: the winch is then used to lower the upright extension by clamping on to the pulling rope - obviously you have the (possibly dead [hopefully in a non technical sense!]) weight of the person up the scope, so this can't be done by hand. Once the extension is fully lowered, the winch is unhooked from the rope and attached to a fastening point on the bottom of the upright, the two fastening clamps are unhooked, and the upright is lowered over using the winch.

 

At that point, you still have to get the person out of the basket which is now sitting sideways at a height of around 5 feet, and that's no easy task - but it is better than anything out there at present. I was impressed by the guys from AAP, both in their pragmatism in knowing that any solution had to be workable and affordable or else there was little point, and also their patience in dealing with the HSE chap who seemed to have been a particularly bloody-minded example of the breed - at least from their telling of the story!

 

They also demonstrated their proposal for the safe working method to move it with a person up top. This possibly attracted the most comment: one feature of it is two outriggers a side at 45º. There was some argument that this wasn't as strong as a single outrigger at 90º, and would spread if the tallescope did start to go over sideways (although I reckon simply clamping the two together should alleviate that problem.) The two out riggers pers side solution came from the HSE's insistence that with just one you weren't satisfying the requirement for the ratio of the width of the base to the maximum height, the area being missed being just where the 45º outriggers would go.

[David Ripley]

I'm going on Friday. I had guessed that it involved some sort of winch to 'dinosaur' the Talle with the victim in the basket

 

Unfortunately I have a 9815 model. This has a fixed upright section plus the extending bit which folds down for storage, if you are unfamiliar with this version.

 

I'd be interested to see if the system works for this type

 

I shall report back

 

David

[kerry davies]

and also their patience in dealing with the HSE chap who seemed to have been a particularly bloody-minded example of the breed - at least from their telling of the story!

Sadly the last time they said something similar the HSE chap, a member of this forum, was in the room and they were forced to apologise for misleading the listeners. I hope it wasn't the same guy or the other HSE inspector on BR, both of whom are really reasonable and common sensical. (Is that a word?)

 

It would be interesting if anyone can report back and could ask them whether this is purely a theatre fix or a recommendation for all Tallescope users. Costs would be interesting as would training requirements.

[Tom]

Thanks Gibbo.

 

Kerry - why would it be theatre only and not suitable for all users?

Except of course that 'scopes were originally specifically designed for use by one person. this would require at least one additional trained operator on the ground.

[matt_beal]

Presumably this involves the person being somehow attached into to the basket? I can see a bad situation becoming much worse if the person falls out whilst the upright is being lowered...

[the kid]

Presumably this involves the person being somehow attached into to the basket? I can see a bad situation becoming much worse if the person falls out whilst the upright is being lowered...

Good! not just me who read that! if you are in a cradle ... going sideways and unconcious or fuzzy or anything unsavoury I cannot imagine it is going to be a great lowering.

[kerry davies]

Could I please appeal for patience until David gets back to us?

 

That is why I haven't responded, Tom, more shall be revealed.

[Andrew Edwards]

I am also going tomorrow.

 

If anyone has any specific questions that they would like me to forward then please let me know.

[IRW]

Unfortunately although I was scheduled to go, I didn't make it in the end to this, due to having to half move house this weekend...anyone in a position to report back?

 

Ian

[Andrew Edwards]

Here I my observations from the demo. The purpose of it was to allow us, as the everyday users, to find fault and/or suggest improvement. AAP didn't want to design a system that was unworkable.

 

We were reminded of the hierarchy of selection at the beginning. Read into that what you will.

 

Method:

 

Custom hand winch that clamps to the base. It first attaches to the basket rope to lower it to the un-extended position. Depending upon how far the 'scope is extended, this could involve multiple moves as you would need to alter the position of the attachment to the rope.

It is then attached to the bottom of the ladder to allow a controlled tip over at the existing pivot point. Currently shackles, hopefully carabiners if they can find someone who will certify.

The basket has been filled in with plates in certain places to stop falling through or limbs falling out [too much]. This relies on the casualty slumping down in the basket and not hanging over the side. Tall folks could still fall out as it is tipped over. A WP lanyard attachment was mooted...yes I know. Somebody mentioned increasing the rail height of the basket to ensure tall people fall into the basket. This 'tall person kit' would be a venue dependent extra from AAP. Padding was also mentioned but AAP said this covers bolts and welds so would need to be easily removed during inspection.

The scope would be reinforced where necessary and involves relocating the additional (from the moving kit) outriggers for tipping operation.

Performing a rescue may damage the scope due to stress depending upon the weight of the casualty in the basket although one would be more worried about the injured tech.

Kit is not necessarily permanent for those with more than one scope but some extra bits would be permanent on every 'scope though. There would be anti-tamper to stop you from using the lovely winch elsewhere and/or to show that it had been used for a rescue.

 

As the 'scope would then technically lift people it requires a 6 monthly inspection. AAP were quick to say that they would not double the annual fee and would throw in replacements of parts with fair wear and tear also.

£600 was suggested by AAP for the kit including fitting. Training may be provide at point of fitting included in price...maybe. A DVD would be supplied either way. Rescue training would form part of all future AAP 'scope training.

 

Rescue is a minimum two person operation. A fully extended scope would be quite tiring to 'drop' with the winch. With two people you could get the operation completed in at least the national emergency service response time of 8 minutes and possibly less.

 

The issue of removal from basket was commented upon and ramps and slides were suggested. The demo was on a small 'scope with the tipped basket at about 5 feet. I have relatives in the emergency services and they would rather move a person a short way down to a stretcher than up from the floor. I don't think it is an issue.

 

They were hoping to get it to market by the ABTT show in June.

[David Ripley]

I was also there on Friday and to add to Andrew's comprehensive report;

 

The kit currently won't work for the 'Elevator' type Talles such I mentioned in my first post. They are working on this but the majority of units are the straight up and down types.

 

The winch will have a tamper proof cover and the system will be required to be inspected after each use.

 

The hauling line for the ladder may have to be replaced, depending on the age of your Tallesope. Newer versions' rating is much higher and can take the raising and lowering of the basket with a casualty in it.

 

The basket is modified in that the 'front' of the basket is now solid so the casualty rests on that. This came from comments at their previous demos.

 

The winch itself goes onto the main frame using standard scaff couplings so if you have a few Tallescopes, you might keep it in a cupboard until you need it, having had the other modifications made to all your Talles. Those of us with just one Talle would probably keep it attached. Risk Assessment would dictate this, you'd need to assess the likelihood of having two people hors de combat at the top of a Talle at the same time, plus distance to store and training for users.

 

Regarding training there was a debate/disagreement about whether training would need to actually go through a rescue, thereby requiring the kit to be reinspected, or could be done via DVD. The point was raised about harness rescue has to actually be done with a casualty in a harness. I guess the HSE will probably rule on that one.

 

The kit was fixed on the Tallescope at the start of the demo. The Talle wasn't fully raised, just a couple of steps up. In all it took 2-3 minutes to lower the Talle down. You could maybe add 5 minutes to that to install the winch (if it isn't already there) plus swapping two of the outriggers from the moving kit to the front of it. They are using the suspension trauma timings as a guide on speed of rescue.

 

All in all it looks like a practical system and as there was HSE representation I'm assuming it has at least tacit approval.

 

However having just been into a theatre and witnessed the Talle being used without outriggers there is a lot of education in the basics of Tallescope use to be undertaken!

 

David

[kerry davies]

One would presume that as moving an occupied Tallie requires at least two ground crew trained in the operation it does not entail yet more cost, is that so?

 

What sort of annual costs and initial investment is foreseen, rough costs obviously?

 

How will they differentiate between models so that inappropriate use is prevented?

 

Is this a mandatory rescue system for all Tallescope use?

 

Did anyone get a name for the "HSE representation"?

[David Ripley]

Kerry

 

One would presume that as moving an occupied Tallie requires at least two ground crew trained in the operation it does not entail yet more cost, is that so?

 

What sort of annual costs and initial investment is foreseen, rough costs obviously?

 

 

The figure of £600 was mentioned for the Kit/installation and training. They talked about an all inclusive annual fee for inspection and replacement parts due to wear and tear but no figures that I recall.

 

 

How will they differentiate between models so that inappropriate use is prevented? Also the winch is sealed with a tamper proof fitting so when it is inspected biannually it will be obvious it's been used. I'm sure the temptation will be there to use the winch to set the Talle up but it is intended for use only as a rescue kit, hence sealing it up until required.

 

 

I presume that there will be a kit for the straight up and down version and the 'elevator' versions.

 

Is this a mandatory rescue system for all Tallescope use?

 

No,it's a system that will work for the mandatory rescue plan. They referred to it as being a non venue-specific system. There's been a lot of work around the country on winch systems from grids etc There was such a system on the Wales Technical Arts Forum on LinkedIn but the Dropbox link appears to be broken. From what I remember of it it did entail a second person climbing the Tallescope to clip on the victim prior to them being winched out of the basket. That's obviously a bit dubious so this kit means that a rescue can happen regardless of whether you have grid or similar overhead access or not and means no-one else has to climb the Talle.

 

Did anyone get a name for the "HSE representation"?

No and why?

 

I hope that clarifies things

 

David

[kerry davies]

Thanks David, helps put things in perspective.