More onstage monitoring issues

[BigYinUK]

Hi all

 

We've been really struggling over the past few months with our poor singer who still doesn't seem to have found a monitoring solution that works for her. Not surprisingly when she can't hear proper;y she can't pitch accurately and then the whole show goes to hell in a basket.

 

Its not that we don't have good monitoring, some of the venues we've worked with have had great monitoring but the real problem is that whereas the rest of us are all slightly "hearing impaired" from years of playing rock 'n roll she's new to the business and has extremely sensitive hearing.

 

We've tried getting her a set of wireless in ears which she was reluctant to use initially but is happy with now however this isn't really solving the problem entirely for a couple of reasons.

 

1. We sometimes play venues where its not necessary or desirable or even possible technically to mike up everything so its not possible to give her the full band. Usually she's happy with just her vocals and a bit of keyboards and Hammond and can pitch OK, but this isn't really the full answer as she misses queues from me on guitar and it feels to me that she's not quite connected with the band in the same way as when she can hear everything and this affects her interaction with us and therefore our show.

 

 

2. Also we have suffered with what can only be called complete incompetence with in house engineers who think its OK to play about with channel gain once the show is running. A couple of weeks ago we did a gig, one minute she had vocals, next none, next keys then nothing - you get the picture. Unfortunately we don't at the moment have our own engineer so we do need to think about how to cope with this.

 

I've always been of the opinion that in-ears are fine for big shows where everything is miked up and run by a competent monitor mix engineer, otherwise I feel its one of these things that is going to end up counter productive.

 

Also using in-ears dictates that she always has her own monitor mix. - Again not always possible.

 

The only other possibility I can think of is that we get her a pair of ER20s and hope that the attenuation will enable her to hear OK as long as we have a half decent monitor mix. If this were the case we could survive with 2 monitor mixes which is nearly always possible whatever the equipment.

 

Any suggestions please, I'm running out of ideas.

 

PS I should say that we're a 5 piece, essentially a rock band. Keys (piano/Hammond), bass, drums, guitar (with some synth effects), 3 vocals and some trigger sound effects. Notably, we are not a loud band and the musicians are some of the best I've worked with in terms of not trying to have volume battles with one another.

 

Oh and.... plus we're doing several festivals this summer where I know we're just going to get thrown on stage with maybe 20 minutes to set up and sound check with no possibility of doing anything clever with monitoring :(

[Matt Riley]

I would be thinking of

 

a) getting a good engineer and touring your own rig

 

or

 

b) bringing a mixwiz / 01v/ behringer x32 rack/ whatever and passive split system with you so that you bypass the incompetent FOH engineer altogether for the IEMs.

[TomM]

It may be best as a further development of Matt's ideas depending on what you are getting on the road, but a carefully placed ambient mic to pick up anything 'extra' for the IEMs might prove useful, though doesn't work for everyone.

[Wilflet]

If the house desk is big enough Iv certianly miced guitars and things only for monitors in the past

 

- touching gains out front when mixing monitors from FoH is a big no no. well for FoH preferences it is- the only reason to change is if something drastic has changed on stage and the intent is to keep the monitors the same as well (im thinking a pad being knocked on a di, someone turning their amp/keyboard up to 11- it dosnt apply to vocals)

 

-What sort of places are you playing? How big are the desks (compared to your channel count)? Are monitors always done from FoH?

 

Is taking an engineer with you an option?

[BigYinUK]

Thanks both. I had actually thought about a passive split and doing our own on stage mix. There are a couple of problems with this approach for us.

 

1. We're looking to simplify and reduce equipment count and setup times not increase it.

 

2. Unless we could patch into the venue's monitoring we'd all have to have in-ears or also bring our own monitoring.

 

3. Also none of us have any money. Its costing us a fortune to gig as it is (not really the idea) and although we hope we'll get decently paid gigs in time, there's a limit to how much cash we have to spend on more gear.

 

Nice idea technically though :)

 

Thanks Wilflet

 

Mostly the smaller "music venues". Typically we're finding they do have quite decent kit. Minimum we've seen is a 16 channel desk with 4 auxes which was fine for that venue, some have much bigger kit. Haven't come across one that actually has a dedicated monitor mix engineer, despite their tech specs saying they do ** laughs out loud **

 

Biggest problems have been with the in house engineers themselves. We've had in house guys who won't let our engineer touch their kit - despite our rider saying they must allow our engineer access. But we have had one or two complete idiots including the one I allude to in my post.

 

We had our own guy who was top but he's moved into theatre now and can't spare us the time anymore.

 

For the size of venues, the time we have to set up and the complications of getting our own onstage stuff set up, sound checked, and working, its beginning to feel that trying to cope with multiple individual monitor mixes is just one ask to many. It seems to piss off the engineers and we just end up with a crap on stage sound. Hence my question about ER20s and trying to keep things simple.

 

I guess a lot of it is our own inexperience with working with the engineers to get it right. Personally I've always been happy with whatever I get, if I can't hear my guitar I just turn up (a bit) move the cab or move where I stand so I can hear.

 

Its the singers sensitive hearing that is giving us the biggest problems. There's only so quiet a drummer can play!

[Doug Siddons]

Thanks both. I had actually thought about a passive split and doing our own on stage mix. There are a couple of problems with this approach for us.

 

1. We're looking to simplify and reduce equipment count and setup times not increase it.

 

2. Unless we could patch into the venue's monitoring we'd all have to have in-ears or also bring our own monitoring.

 

3. Also none of us have any money. Its costing us a fortune to gig as it is (not really the idea) and although we hope we'll get decently paid gigs in time, there's a limit to how much cash we have to spend on more gear.

 

Nice idea technically though :)

 

Not withstanding the money issue a split would be the optimum solution something like this cheap enough gives you a fourway into her own personal rackmount mixer into ears . (Her vox keys guitar and ambient) The other option would be to try and get her to wear one bud so she's not isolated, she could wear an ear plug in the "unmonitored" ear if volume was an issue

 

 

 

[Tony Lake]

Just Realise doug beat me too it, here's just an Idea for a slightly more elaborate system/or super simple version at the bottom!

I worked a show for The Magic Band doing monitors and they had a pretty decent wireless system which makes it really is on the house engineer, and will give your vocalist control

 

If you can afford a mixer (and a couple of DI boxes), you can do this.

 

Get a small mixer like this. (if you hunt around you may find it a bit cheaper)

http://www.studiospa...xer/invt/382220

 

assuming your guitar has a line out before the power tube section and your hammond is a DI, get 3 di's, (if the guitar/hammond is only micable, get a Shure SM57 +and XLR cable)

With the DI's you'll need 2 jack cables for each one you use.

Cheap DI:

http://www.studiospa...448290?VBMST=di

 

(the type of di doesn't matter, as long as it has a link out)

 

 

and finally a XLR Y split cable (+an XLR cable maybe worth buying too)

http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B0060GKSKA

 

Doing some hunting, you can certainly do all this for under £150, and whats nice is that you vocalist will have control over her mix.

 

OK, how to put this stuff together:

 

It's actually fairly simple.

 

each channel on the mixer be an instrument, first of use the XLR Y Split to have the vocal going to both the house rig and your new mini mixer. (so XLR cable to the split, and one half of the split goes to channel one of the mixer.

 

 

Put a DI box next to each of the instrument (I'm guessing one for keys, one for hammond and one for guitar). use the "Link" jack out on the DI, to connect these Di's to the mixer (you can also unitise the stereo channels for this on the mixer I've linked, to save other channels.

 

Finally for the drums, either get the house engineer to send a drum mix, or if it;s a very small gig, either do without drums or ask in house for a condenser or an SM57/58 and use it as a drum over head (although you Probably won't need it, it may even be more beneficial to put it in the kick drum.)

 

So you'd have a little channel list on your mini mixer that goes something like....

 

Ch 1:Vocal

Ch 2: Line from house engineer

Ch 3 (3/4): Gtr

Ch 5(5/6): Drum overhead

Ch 7 (7/8): keys

Ch 9 (9/10):Hammond.

 

have the mixer and wireless transmitter in the same place (probably somewhere near the singer.) use the main outputs to connect the mini mixer to the transmitter

 

onces you've set the gains, just un mute and simply brin the faders up to the desired level.

 

 

Your singer will have to get the hang of the mixer but it's not to hard, and you seem to have some know how for this stuff.

SUPER SIMPLE VERSION

 

this is as complex as it needs to be, to be honest if your singer can manage happily without all the other instruments then it may be better (and definitely cheaper), to get a 2 channel mixer, a Y-split for the vocals, and just take a mix from front and blend the vocal in (at least that way she has control of her vocal!)

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

PS

Linky for that as well.

XLR cable

http://www.studiospa...ina/invt/590150

[Jivemaster]

Maybe you've arrived at the career point where you NEED the sound to be right to have a future as a band. Maybe you have to tour a monitor engineer or at least your own monitor split.

[BigYinUK]

Thanks for that Tony.

 

Although I had considered setting up something for our own independent on stage mix I hadn't thought of doing it just for the singers mix alone so she could control her own iem mix. Quite brilliant and we do already have most of what we need.

 

We have plenty of mics an 8 channel or a 16 channel Yamaha mixer we could use so I could see the system working as:

 

ch1 - Vocal (XLR split from lead vocal mic)

ch2 - Piano (take 2nd output from keys or from DI box thru)

ch3 - Hammond (ditto above)

ch4 - Guitar (Emulated line out)

ch5 - optional - ambient mic for drums and overall "live" feel.

 

Many many thanks.

 

PS Jivemaster - ** laughs out loud ** you may be on to something :)

[Brian]

...she could control her own iem mix. Quite brilliant and we do already have most of what we need.

If you can manage to squeeze it in, it really sounds like she would benefit from having a feed of an ambient mic in her ears as well. It doesn't need to be anything special. An old mic sat on a short stand on the DS edge pointing back at the band would do it.

[BigYinUK]

I've got a couple of suitable table stands and an omni directional condenser which might well do the ambient job perfectly.

 

Tx again

[Wilflet]

 

 

 

Biggest problems have been with the in house engineers themselves. We've had in house guys who won't let our engineer touch their kit - despite our rider saying they must allow our engineer access. But we have had one or two complete idiots including the one I allude to in my post.

.....

its beginning to feel that trying to cope with multiple individual monitor mixes is just one ask to many. It seems to piss off the engineers and we just end up with a crap on stage sound.

 

Neither of these things really makes sense to me,

Iv know a few venues have this no your not allowed to have your engineer mix approach.. My approach when iv been house/PA supplier is providing theyre not going to break anything I'll happily take the relative break of sitting behind them reading comics and answering questions they may have.

 

 

If its at all possible with what the venue have I try to give everyone their own mix- and that goes double for when im doing both from FoH. The reasoning behind that being if youve got 2 people sharing who spend the whole evening battling "I'll need more bass'.. 'the bass is too loud can I have my keys up'... etc etc, then thats time lost that I could be focusing on the main mix- separate mixes give a better chance everyone going to be happy and thus something I dont really need to think about during the set.

 

There are some house engineers out there that I really cant fathom why they chose this job.

[S&L]

all valid points above. just a little more food for thought.

 

1. for most bands it doesn't take that long to mic everything for a small band in a small venue and that gives you control and control gives you quality. Of course I do this in small theatre shows but I'm also mic'ing up and using in ears for bar shows of 100 capacity.

 

2. one thing that helps singers use in ears in these small bars is the one ear in and one ear out approach i.e. she has keys and her own voice going to her left ear and is able to uncover her right ear to hear a guitar cue - that takes practice and some are never happy with that approach but it does help - it also helps instead of having an audience mic 'in ears' - the uncovered ear allows more audience interaction.

 

3. work on the stage volumes - the band sound shouldn't be occupying more than the stage it's on, let the PA do the heavy lifting. this will both reduce the noise on stage and have the effect that the band hears the whole mix thro the back of the PA. it makes for a much more controllable sound. for consistent quality you need to mic up even small-ish venues.

 

4. once you are concerned about monitor mixes and FOH mixes you are at the point where you need an engineer with you - he doesn't need to be great - if he is working with you week after week he will learn what your singer needs and what works and what doesn't. then you can just get on with playing - which is what you want to do anyway. this is pretty much how I started (and still do work often) mixing the same band in different bars and venues night after night.

 

5. some venues insist on their own engineer. most theatres have very competent engineers but in many bars the engineer is actually just a mate of the landlord or the DJ doubling up. a band of my acquaintance turned round to the management in one such venue a few years ago and said 'we love working in your venue but will only take another booking if we bring in our own properly qualified engineer. we have no trust in your engineer.'

they risked losing the gig - in that case it worked for them and they 'hire in' a professional for that particular gig at significant cost. my point though is that there comes a time when you have to waive bye bye to unhelpful venues.

 

there is an adage in my day job which is just as relevant in my weekend job.

3 things contribute to a project/gig - 1. quality, 2. cost, 3. time.

only one thing can lead - you CANNOT have two of them. if speed/time leads then cost and quality come second. if quality leads then cost and time come second. if money leads then time and quality come second. pick a horse, time, quality, cost - you can't ride all three.

[Chappie]

2. one thing that helps singers use in ears in these small bars is the one ear in and one ear out approach i.e. she has keys and her own voice going to her left ear and is able to uncover her right ear to hear a guitar cue - that takes practice and some are never happy with that approach but it does help - it also helps instead of having an audience mic 'in ears' - the uncovered ear allows more audience interaction.

Whilst this works for some people, everyone who recommends this to artists needs to understand the increased risks of hearing damage once the volumes start to get high. Long-term exposure to single-ear high-pressures without the benefits of binaural summation are well documented.

[mervaka]

Could one of these boxes be of use? She would have control of her own mic level, and the engineer would only be responsible for sending the rest of the band down her monitor mix:

 

http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/headphone_amps/product/mymonitor/