Stuart91 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 One of my biggest bugbears this festive season has been snow machines. They have caused no end of grief. In the run up to last Christmas, we bought a couple of these, and they have now both broken. We also have a few smaller ones kicking around which have been equally troublesome. I'd be keen to find out if anyone on the board has models that have been reliable? I don't think I've owned one yet that has lasted more than half a dozen hires. Also, some customers have been unimpressed with the machines, even when they have been working perfectly. Some of that will be unrealistic expectations, but I'd be willing to pay a bit extra for something that is quieter and can throw the snow a bit further. However, we can't spend too much money as there is essentially a 3-week window when they are in demand and can make the investment back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigclive Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 On the basis that these machines have a vacuum cleaner type blower and a standard solenoid pump that both typically come on simultaneously I'd guess that the issues you are experiencing are probably the blower working, but the pump failing. I recently stripped a snow machine to investigate a failed pump on a machine that had not seen much use, but had been sitting for a while. The pump was unusually corroded inside despite being made of seemingly suitable materials. I'm guessing that the glycols in the smoke machine applications of these pumps offer lubrication and corrosion inhibition perhaps? Either way, from what I've seen I'd probably regard the pump as an expendable part. The single biggest customer gripe about snow machines is the noise. They're basically a vacuum cleaner on blow, and sound accordingly. Snow fluid is an interesting subject. The low residue type generally still leaves residue. Not surprising really given that it's basically detergent and water. Many of the FX companies seem to use shampoo to make theirs and I've used ASDA's George brand "no tears" baby wash with good results. (One full bottle to a gallon of water) The addition of isopropanol (Isopropyl alcohol) seems to be an option for adding fluffiness and encouraging faster evaporation, but keep in mind that Isopropanol is flammable so use sparingly if at all. I think it's well advised to empty the tanks of these machines completely if they are going to be stored for a while. I wonder if there's even something that could be flushed through to protect the pump in storage. Preferably something that would just blow through and get washed out the foam sock with the proper fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart91 Posted December 27, 2012 Author Share Posted December 27, 2012 On the basis that these machines have a vacuum cleaner type blower and a standard solenoid pump that both typically come on simultaneously I'd guess that the issues you are experiencing are probably the blower working, but the pump failing. That sounds pretty much on the money. The broken machines all still make plenty noise, but nothing comes out. I haven't yet looked into replacement parts for our broken machines, but I figure it would be better to buy something new that is designed a bit better. We have a few coming back from hires over the next few days. I was thinking of running some water through them to try and avoid the buildup of gunge inside whilst they sit on the shelf for the next 11 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart91 Posted December 28, 2012 Author Share Posted December 28, 2012 That's another three machines back from a festive event. Two out of the three now have clogged pumps. One machine (which now appears to be completely clogged) was used last Christmas, the other two are brand new and that was literally the first time they had been used. Luckily we had been generous with the amount of machines we gave the customer so it wasn't a show-stopping problem, but it underlines the problems these machines have. I'm trying to run water through them at the moment and the clogged one isn't moving anything, the other problematic one is letting little more than a trickle through. It might be that leaving fluid in the pump for any length of time is going to clog them, and that they should be cleaned through after every use. But unfortunately for a dry hire item, that just isn't going to happen. Has anyone come across models that don't clog quite so readily? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImagineerTom Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Cheep fluid (nasty cheep detergents randomly added to non distilled water) combining with cheep pumps (not happy with the alkeline solution pumping thru them) with the added complication that they're useually up in the roof or somewhere else where it's particularly warm so even more of the water evaporates off is your problem. I've played with a lot of snow machines and whilst some of the very top end machines and fluid are a lot better it's still a problem. We just used to order a pallet full of cheep chinese machines so that they only cost £25 each and simply junked them when they started to misbehave as this was considerably cheaper than paying treble the amount for fluid and 10 times the amount for machines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart91 Posted December 28, 2012 Author Share Posted December 28, 2012 We just used to order a pallet full of cheep chinese machines so that they only cost £25 each and simply junked them when they started to misbehave as this was considerably cheaper than paying treble the amount for fluid and 10 times the amount for machines I'd been beginning to fear that this might be the situation. Whilst I can understand the advantage of just taking a pile of cheap machines along on events that you have staff covering, our primary problem is dry hire. There is definitely demand for the machines, we were turning people away, but we've got to find something that works reliably, or just give up on it altogether. (I'm tempted to give customers one cheap machine, and a spare in a sealed box that they can use as a backup, but swapping them over mid-event is not going to be a popular option) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alistermorton Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Has anyone come across models that don't clog quite so readily? I'll ask my mate in the Rotary if he knows what sort he had - they were used on several occasions over Chrimbo and as far as I know gave him no problems. If it's any help, they looked remarkably similar to a Unique hazer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart91 Posted December 28, 2012 Author Share Posted December 28, 2012 I'll ask my mate in the Rotary if he knows what sort he had - they were used on several occasions over Chrimbo and as far as I know gave him no problems. If it's any help, they looked remarkably similar to a Unique hazer. That sounds like just the sort of thing I'm looking for - thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigclive Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 For new machines to clog so quickly I'd suspect that maybe the fluid you had was contaminated or old enough to possibly have gunk growing in it. While good quality smoke fluid has inherent sterile properties the snow fluid does have a risk of going off in storage unless laced with preservatives. A more appropriate pump for these machines would be a peristaltic pump, since the only components the fluid flows through is silicon tubing. Sadly most snow machines are made by smoke machine manufacturers who just use the same old pump they have in stock. You can open the solenoid pumps to maintain them, but they contain lots of springs and loose bits that will invariably pop out unexpectedly when the end is unscrewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart91 Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 Thanks, Clive - another really helpful reply. For new machines to clog so quickly I'd suspect that maybe the fluid you had was contaminated or old enough to possibly have gunk growing in it. While good quality smoke fluid has inherent sterile properties the snow fluid does have a risk of going off in storage unless laced with preservatives. Aha! We might be onto something here. A few years ago we over-bought snow fluid, the person who placed the order didn't realise he was buying boxes of four, not individual bottles. I should be able to work out if any of that batch were out with the most recent hires. How long do you reckon it might take for fluid to become spoiled? (Maybe the manufacturers should mark them with a best before date) A more appropriate pump for these machines would be a peristaltic pump, since the only components the fluid flows through is silicon tubing. Sadly most snow machines are made by smoke machine manufacturers who just use the same old pump they have in stock. That sounds like an idea. I wouldn't have a problem with replacing the pumps, especially on the larger machines. I guess the next step is to open a machine up, get the pump specs, and look for a peristaltic pump that matches. From a quick google around, they seem relatively expensive - any keenly priced suppliers that you know of? You can open the solenoid pumps to maintain them, but they contain lots of springs and loose bits that will invariably pop out unexpectedly when the end is unscrewed. Yes, I know exactly how that process would go... :** laughs out loud **: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 ...From a quick google around, they seem relatively expensive - any keenly priced suppliers that you know of? Have a look on Aliexpress.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigclive Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 You can check the state of the fluid simply by looking into a bottle and seeing if there is sediment or "fluff" floating around in the bottle (mould growth!). The peristaltic pumps do tend to be quite expensive. They also tend to be rated for fluid throughput, which would have to be roughly matched to the machine. They are used as detergent dosing pumps in industrial dishwashers, but I'm not sure if that flow would be high enough for a snow machine. You can also get variable speed DC motor versions, but my own choice would be a dumb fixed-speed AC mains motor hooked up in parallel to the blower. I'm not sure the feed volume of snow fluid in these machines, but I think it's quite heinous like 15 litres an hour. A slower pump would result in a light flutter of snow as opposed to the desired flurry. Ebay seems to have quite a few different "smoke machine pump" units on offer if you decide to go for a standard solenoid pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the kid Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Would it be possible to sub hire off http://shop.snowbusiness.com/ ? the snowboy looks suitable and you could be "safe" knowing it will work etc etc. I am not sure if they sell them, they may but as you say, you are looking at making something back and I would assume those would be 400 or more to buy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicktaylor Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Maybe an additional idea would be to filter the fluid. A bIt like with port that has built up sediment. I have a friend who collects the stuff!. This is an interesting theme. I have been asked for snow machines and always said no. I had one on approval from now defunct Smoke Company and sent it back as far too noisy. To be fair I operate in theatrical situations and even a smoke machine can sound rather loud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boardingbob Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I hired from snowbusiness last Xmas. We got the SnowBoy, rigged it foh and over the month of the run only had to go up to it to add more fluid. It gave v good quality, low residue snow and was (slightly) quieter than other machines. It was only used for one brief burst of snow per show, so not the kind of heavy useage that really shows up problems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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