Wingnut Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Does anyone know if the wire mesh (like chicken wire) after the bubble in a parcan is a legal requirement? I have noticed we have a few pars without the mesh. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Yet again we need to be careful of that word 'legal'. The only place that anything is written down is in EN 60598. Any luminaire placed on the market in the EU should now be CE marked and probably certified to EN 60598. The spec says that any luminaire with a lens, which would include PARs, should have a mesh to prevent anything bigger than a piece of glass 25mm across from falling out. Other than that it's up to you to do a risk assessment to comply with the mountain of HSE legislation. [EDIT]It's worth pointing out that breaching any of the laws around CE marking are an offense for the manufacturer and not the user. However, the lack of a CE mark on equipment might be a factor in your risk assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikienorth Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 I may be wrong but, I cannot recall any source4 I have seen ever having mesh in front of the lens. I know the zooms I see most regularly do not, how do ETC get round CE marking if this is the case? I am also reasonably confident they are CE marked, do they just win approval (somehow) just for the lamp back, without any lens tubes, or do they meet approval under a different EN standars to win the CE mark?I am not sure how CE is won, wether it is a conformity to all relevant standards or just one or two, could someone explain that for me, as well as sorting out the little poser above, or making me look really stupid. However, Mesh in a Parcan, if not a requirement of standards, is a really really good idea, I, and many on here no doubt, have seen a can with mesh catch successfully the contents of a broken lamp, when they choose to break, as they do. This has happened with someone beneath it, so the mesh does serve a good purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 I may be wrong but, I cannot recall any source4 I have seen ever having mesh in front of the lens. I know the zooms I see most regularly do not, how do ETC get round CE marking if this is the case? I am also reasonably confident they are CE marked, do they just win approval (somehow) just for the lamp back, without any lens tubes, or do they meet approval under a different EN standars to win the CE mark? A quick look at the datasheets on the ETC site doesn't show what standards they certify to. Does anyone have any ETC manuals? Somewhere in all the paperwork ought to be a declaration of conformity which says which standards they work to. A source 4 will be slightly different to a PAR though as the lamp is behind at least two lenses. In the event of the lamp exploding it will only shatter the rear lens and any glass will not get past the front lens. There is stuff in the standard about glass finding it's way out of lamphouses as well. I am not sure how CE is won, wether it is a conformity to all relevant standards or just one or two, could someone explain that for me, as well as sorting out the little poser above, or making me look really stupid. CE marking is not won as such. All you really need is an account with RS, Farnell or similar. Just buy a roll of CE stickers and put them on your product. OK, so that's a cynics view. CE is a declaration by the manufacturer or importer that a product complies with the appropriate standards. There are loads of standards, some generic and some specific. If there isn't a specifc standard for your type of product then you use a generic one. Before you attach a CE mark you should be confident that your product actually complies with the standards. You can do this one of two ways - you can have the product externally tested or you can self-certify. To back all this up you need documentation - something called a TCF or technical construction file. In many ways it like risk assessment - the CE mark simply shows the end-user that the 'risk assessment' has been done. The whole area of CE and standards is at least as large as HSE regulations, the above is only an overview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 I had a parcan with no mesh fitted shatter a lamp once - one bit of glass melted its way through the dancefloor. I've never ever used one with mesh missing again. The thought of someone underneath scared me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 ETC do a CE and UC version. The CE version has a mesh at the front. See here and here. A source 4 will be slightly different to a PAR though as the lamp is behind at least two lenses. In the event of the lamp exploding it will only shatter the rear lens and any glass will not get past the front lens. I might well be wrong - but not all the lens options use two lenses do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 We have just bought some cheap parcans for my old school, they were CE marked as I checked, but they didn't contain any mesh.....Can't remember off hand the manufacturer, but they weren't totally rubbish as said lanterns did include par-safes.Maybe I'll try and get some extra budget for wire mesh, and over-quote a little to get some more toys..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikienorth Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 I checked a S4 this afternoon during a fit up, and, it was CE marked, and, it did have a 20mm square meshing at the front of it, directly behind the colur frame runners. On this I'll stand corrected, but I still need to check some others out to be 100% as I only checked a fixed beam angle one, not a 10 degree or a zoom, as I am sure the zooms I often see have no mesh, but am sure they are CE stamped. And yes, the S4 only has one lens unless it is a zoom, but, the EN standards applied to this state any lamp containing a lens, therefore the fact a lens can catch a shattered lamp is not the problem, it is the fact that the lens could possibly break and fall out that the mesh is there to also protect against. I only take the above information from this topic, and interpret it to get the above thought. Just a quick, slightly related question, in Brian's first post he says that equipment should be sold with a CE mark. Is this an actual requirement in regulation or legislation, i.e. if it hasn't got the CE mark, it is not 'legal' to sell it; or is it just good practice to not release for sale a product that does not meet CE requirements. And just to clear my head again, when did a ruling come into force saying no luminaire should be sold without meeting CE requirements, in case certain things I want to look at predate this ruling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 Just a quick, slightly related question, in Brian's first post he says that equipment should be sold with a CE mark. Is this an actual requirement in regulation or legislation, i.e. if it hasn't got the CE mark, it is not 'legal' to sell it; or is it just good practice to not release for sale a product that does not meet CE requirements. And just to clear my head again, when did a ruling come into force saying no luminaire should be sold without meeting CE requirements, in case certain things I want to look at predate this ruling?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> According to This Article CE approval is required for all electrical equipment sold in Europe (including UK), and has been since 1997. Approved equipment should bear the CE marking unless there are specific reasons why not. In these circumstances it should have the mark and a "certificate of conformity" on the packaging/manual/etc. Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.D. Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 Am I right in thinking CE is required not just for sales, but also hire of electrical goods. I wonder what the stroy is with birdies? Par 36 etc do have mesh but 12V dicro fixtures don't. I've never seen one explode and I guess they're a bit small/not hot enough for the combined effect to be very serious? The previously mentioned article establishes the Low Voltage Directive (and thus the scope of the CE aproval) as applying to equipment over 50V, but you do get mains birdies. (they're not the most secure of lamp holder in the 12V versions. I imagine they wouldn't be nice falling on your head from height even if they are quite small) T.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomLyall Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 (they're not the most secure of lamp holder in the 12V versions. I imagine they wouldn't be nice falling on your head from height even if they are quite small)<{POST_SNAPBACK}> True true, what about all those downlighters in public places (I'm aware these are fixed, but they are still the same principal of a hot bit of glass etc). :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 And yes, the S4 only has one lens unless it is a zoom [PEDANT] I think some flavours do have two lenses...[/PEDANT] :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 I only checked a fixed beam angle one, not a 10 degree or a zoom, as I am sure the zooms I often see have no mesh, but am sure they are CE stampedDon't know about a 10 degree unit but a zoom will have two lenses? Hence my comment about the rear lens catching any glass might apply? Am I right in thinking CE is required not just for sales, but also hire of electrical goods.No, it's a sales requirement. IIRC the phrase is 'placed on the market'. The Low Voltage Directive referred to in the article is a bit like an H&S Regulation - it is something that must be complied with. A standard is a bit like an H&S Approved Code of Practice - it's not compulsory to comply but it is regarded as best practice. There are a whole load of Directives for various things like electrical safety, EM compatibility etc all with supporting standards. A product may have to comply with more than one directive and more than one standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekij Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 CE marking is a legal requirement for a retailer selling new equipment. But what about a retailer selling second hand equipment? Or a random person (non retailer) selling second-hand equipment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 CE marking is a legal requirement for a retailer selling new equipment. But what about a retailer selling second hand equipment? Or a random person (non retailer) selling second-hand equipment?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> CE marking applies not just to retailers but...applies to all equipment put into service in a public or private capacity for professional or non-professional use, or paid for or free of charge; The critical bit is 'put into service' ie it applies when a product is first used within the EU therefore secondhand goods are not covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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