mugatu00 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Hello everyone,If you could help me out it would be greatly appreciated.http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif Any input would be awesome. We are really in a bind. We are trying to put up 2-4 signs that will be 18-22ft wide by 30-40ft tall. Yes, that is a HUGE sign, I know. It will be temporary, only up about 2-3 days. However, we MUST get this up. We were trying to find a way to build a structure to hang the signs from. So I thought of stage rigging systems and that this community (with its vast knowledge) might be able to help me out. Basically we were worried about possible wind, since we are placing these in the San Francisco area for a few days and it can get a little windy at times. We are hoping to use a Vinyl mesh banner that will allow about 30% of wind to pass through it to help lessen any wind stress that may arise. Here are some pictures to show you what we were thinking of doing. Please let me know if this would be possible or would the structure not be safe. We would have unlimited space in the 20ft width direction, but probably only around 10-15ft in the opposite direction, maybe up to 25 ft though. I'm thinking the structure would be 10-15 ft deep, 20 or 40 ft wide(whichever is more stable), and 30-40 ft tall. Let me know if there's any other info you'd need to help me with this. Also, if anyone is a company or knows of a company that could rent, build this structure(s) for us in the SF area. Thanks everyone for any and all help. http://www.billboardexpress.com/Example1.png http://www.billboardexpress.com/Example2.pnghttp://www.billboardexpress.com/Example3.png http://www.billboardexpress.com/sampleMaterial.jpg Example of the material we would probably use. Ideally a one-sided wall would be easiest, like in the second two pictures. I was hoping there was 40ft ends truss that we could have a self-rising beam. But I'd assume other truss have to be put up to stabilize the structure. We could also put banners on both sides of the structure if that would help with stability and/or safety from wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Nobody on this forum can advise you except referring you to an appropriate company. People get injured when this kind of thing goes wrong and the internet cannot replace a trained engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugatu00 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Thank you Journeyman, we DEFINITELY will be using an appropriate company to do this IF we do go through with it. I was just asking if anyone on this forum knows if this is possible or had any ideas or tips. Again, we need to find a company who will rent/build this for us for a few days. I don't know if this is just a UK forum but can anyone refer me to a US company who could help? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Welcome to the Blue Room, However, we are predominantly a UK board, though there are lurkers from the Left side of the Pond, as well as the Antipodes etc. But quite honestly this is MOST DEFINITELY one of thos occasions where you MUST engage a bona fide rigging/structural expert company. One of the most common comments on here is (right or wrong) "If you don't know how to do it safely, then don't do it - get in a man who can" You need to look at who in your state has the credentials to do this sort of thing - consult trade magazines or talk to some venues more local to you. They'll likely have a much better idea than many people here. Sorry, but we can't really b much help (unless you're lucky and a 'Friscan turns up!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 You need a structural engineer fully familiar with your federal, sate and county codes. You will then need a proper plan of installation for the whole thing (truss and banner etc. I recall two incidents in "America" that cost lives because "the show must happen" even though no-one thought about the safety aspects. I used to brief display pilots, the final word was "do the best show you have ever done" the subtext was don't push it because the lives of 20K spectators depend on you. Don't push your event beyond what you are competent to do or someone may get hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugatu00 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Thank you all for the help. I think I found a couple of companies who would be the right for the job. Thanks again for all the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trussmonkey Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Im my previous job I used to spec and design outdoor structures for jobs like this. I can not stress highly enough (especially in the wake of high profile outdoor structure accidents) the need for proper structural engineers reports and calculations for max wind speed allowed and ballast needed. I can tell you that yes you will be using a banner that allows 30 % of the wind to pass the engineers will more than likely dismiss this and treat it as one big sail. You are looking at one hefty amount of ballast for that sized banner especially as you are in San Fran and to say it gets a bit windy there is probably understating it massively !! Make sure that the rigging company gives you full structural calcs that include the following. -a wind speed meter on the top of the structure-max wind speed allowed-max ballast and placement of it.-a risk assessment and method statement of their plan of action incase it all goes wrong (we had a staged plan of attack for windy days. 30% of max wind speed the rigging company was informed. 50% of max wind speed the standby rigger was stood by and 80% of max the rigger was getting ready to bring down the banner/screen etc) I know everyone will be pushing you to keep the sign up but in windy situations with outdoor structures you have to removed the big surface that the wind is acting against for you stand a real chance of ending up on the news as the entertainment industry will have suffered another accident. Sorry if this all is a bit doom and gloom but you can not mess around with the elements and any flaw in planning will come back to bite you in the a**e . best TM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 one big sail That's the word I saw when the OP wrote "sign". And I know nothing of any worth about rigging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addoaddo Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Trussmonkey it is good for a change to have a constructive reply. Just telling people to talk to a qualified person does not always help. Knowing what to talk to them about is very useful and adds to people knowledge an should reduce the rick of going with a company that just say YES to get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Trussmonkey it is good for a change to have a constructive reply. Just telling people to talk to a qualified person does not always help. Knowing what to talk to them about is very useful and adds to people knowledge an should reduce the rick of going with a company that just say YES to get the job done. The OP was clearly aware from the start that the size of the assembly and that the wind resistance of the fabric are the key factors, with the wind speed needing to be taken into account. Apart from raising the issue of ballast I had no more knowledge to impart. The OP was well on the way to knowing what to talk to a company about, my concern was that such information needs to be discussed and implemented with a local specialist rather than over a forum. If anything it was the nature of the topic title that caused me to rapidly recommend introducing a specialist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Good call, Yorkie.While you were posting your first comment I was PM'ing him a link to the IStructE Guide to TDS and suggesting contacting the Event Safety Alliance guys in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart91 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 The OP was clearly aware from the start that the size of the assembly and that the wind resistance of the fabric are the key factors, with the wind speed needing to be taken into account. Apart from raising the issue of ballast I had no more knowledge to impart. The OP was well on the way to knowing what to talk to a company about, my concern was that such information needs to be discussed and implemented with a local specialist rather than over a forum. If anything it was the nature of the topic title that caused me to rapidly recommend introducing a specialist The other thing to bear in mind is that it is not only the person who starts the thread who can rely on the information given. The BR ranks quite highly on google searches, so someone considering a similar problem may well turn this thread up, without having read anything else of the forum. With something as safety-critical as this, it's vitally important that the potential hazards are made clear to anybody browsing the thread. For any structure like this, it is important to have a "wind management plan", which is a combination of a risk assessment and method statement for monitoring and dealing with wind. Obviously you measure the windspeed, try to identify a rising trend, and have an "action point" where you take measures to reduce the wind loading. On the mobile stage that I operate, we can release two straps, which means that the side and rear wall flap free rather than acting as sails. This can be done within minutes. The thing to be careful of with a banner like we're talking about here is that you can release it quickly, and that there is somebody around, throughout the gig, who is well drilled in the steps to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trussmonkey Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 addoaddo Sometimes a constructive reply would be the wrong reply !! if the OP is clearly out of his depth and it has already been started by others before me that he should talk to a professional then giving rigging help is wrong. Unfortunately I mostly post on this part of the forum given my experience and so it does seem like I do doll out a lot of doom and gloom. that is only because what I am replying to warrants doom and gloom !! The OP is wanting to hang a very large banner outdoors when he has very little to no experience in doing this (self confessed). Fair play to the OP he (or she) has sought out advice from others who know more. It is not our place to give a solution as this will open us (me) up to repercussions is all goes wrong his end. So telling the OP to go seek a qualified person is EXACTLY the correct response. If you actually read my reply to them I do actually give some help by telling them what they should be expecting back from the "qualified person" they have found i.e. wind management plan, structural calcs etc. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timsabre Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 ...I think addoaddo was actually complimenting you, not being sarcastic... you did give a helpful reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trussmonkey Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 if that is the case I apologise :o just didnt read that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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