SM58 physical connections

[tapiochre]

Hi there

 

Total newbie here - please forgive any ignorance on my part but I listen well and want to learn!

 

I have acquired a Shure SM58, complete with a XLR to mono 1/4 Jack cable. I want, for a specific project, to record spoken voice directly into a sound card Mic input but am finding the input levels are too low.

 

It was suggested I need a pre-amp, so have the use of a TASCAM 424 MkIII recording desk, but even when this is in line (out of desk to Line In of PC) the gain has to up at 8, with sliders quite high too.

 

What difference (and why) will XLR straight into the desk from the Mic make to the levels? Is the SM58 getting power from the desk?

 

Also, will I get slightly better quality through the XLR - XLR feed than a strained XLR-Jack?

 

Hope you can advise folks!

 

All the best

 

Chris

[chris999998]

but am finding the input levels are too low.

Is the input level up high enough on the PC? Also - not trying to patronize - but is the input muted?

It was suggested I need a pre-amp, so have the use of a TASCAM 424 MkIII recording desk, but even when this is in line (out of desk to Line In of PC) the gain has to up at 8, with sliders quite high too.

is the main output level on the desk high enough?

I've never used a Tascam, but, again, check the input isn't muted. If you have input level control put that to 0 if this is a digital desk (0 should be about middle of faders)

Have you got everything plugged in correctly?

Is the pre-amp (should be a separate knob) up.

Is the desk registering a good signal? - you should see the lights on your level go to about green/yellow. If you hit red the mic is too loud and something should be turned down - pre-amp should be first to change.

Are you (or the performer) close enough to the microphone?

and, Finally: Does the mic work?

 

Hope this helps,

Chris

[TomLyall]

Forgive me if I'm incorrect, (I don't DO sound :() but...

 

If your using an XLR > Jack cable, I suspect what you've pluged the mic into on the desk is the line input, which means its expecting line level, and thats why its 'quiet'. If you used an XLR > XLR then you'd have a balanced mic level input (I think).

 

Anyone agree/disagree?

[tapiochre]

Hi Chris

 

Thanks for the reply... I'll answer all in order:

 

Q: "Is the input level up high enough on the PC? "

A: Yes, I have had to bring the level up on the selected Line input to 100%.

 

Also - not trying to patronize - but is the input muted? - No - its not muted - no offence taken!

 

Q: "Is the main output level on the desk high enough?"

A: Yes, master out is 10, it doesn't make a massive difference.

 

Q: "I've never used a Tascam, but, again, check the input isn't muted."

A: No, the input isn't muted

 

Q: "If you have input level control put that to 0 if this is a digital desk (0 should be about middle of faders)"

A: Yup - already done. Input gain is at full, channel fader to about 8 or more

 

Q: "Have you got everything plugged in correctly?"

A: Yup. I've quadruple checked all possible inputs (i.e. made sure I AM plugged into the Line In and not the Mic In for example)

 

Q: "Is the pre-amp (should be a separate knob) up."

A: Yes (though as such there is no actual "Pre-Amp knob") but I think I know what you mean

 

Q: "Is the desk registering a good signal? - you should see the lights on your level go to about green/yellow. If you hit red the mic is too loud and something should be turned down - pre-amp should be first to change. "

Q: Oh yes. And putting a set of cans on indicates that the level is good too. I'm sitting at about 0db on the input and output meters when I put a test "signal" into the mic (I.e a test vocal).

 

Q: "Are you (or the performer) close enough to the microphone? "

A: Yes, about 5-7 inches away.

 

Q: "Finally: Does the mic work?"

A: Yes, plugged into a PA Amp, its a good ole SM58 going SM58 things!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[tapiochre]

Thanks Tom .... I hope you are correct!

 

This is what I need confirmation about.

 

I'm starting to wornder as well if this could possibly be a sound card thing.... Hmmmm

 

 

Chris

[chris999998]

Is the cable connecting to the PC ok

The only other things I can suggest are to try recording to the PC from a different source, does this work? and to use minidisc or similar.

 

:(

Chris

[audio]

I suspect that tom is right, you have the mic plugged into the line-in because it is a jack input. The desk will be expecting a much higher signal level than the one your mic is sending to it. Line level signals are usually somewhere around -10dBV whereas microphones are something like -50dBV. If you forget the units, just look at the figures, your mixer is expecting something much louder than your microphone output is providing!

 

If you use an XLR-XLR then all should be well, the mic will immediately register much louder on your desk, as the mixer amplifies it more to make up for the lower operating level

 

HTH

John

[Mr.Si]

SM58's are not the most incredibly sensitive mics either.

 

Sennheiser E835 and E845 are more sensitive than SM58's so this can have something to do with it.

 

When connecting a '58 with an XLR - mono (I presume) Jack and then connecting it to a jack input, then you will get a much lower output because jack inputs are expecting to "see" line level - which is a higher voltage than mic level.

 

Which is why tomlyall suggested it was this that was the problem.

 

 

In a reverse situation, you should never plug a guitar directly into a mic (XLR) input without using a DI box. If you do, the mic input is like: "Aarghh! so much voltage, so much voltage, what should I do?! Aarghh!" then you are then at risk of the following happening to your mic preamp for that channel: BANG!

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Si

[chris999998]

Try looking here Tascam 424, this has the specs for the tascam 424 which might be a help. Also try recording to the casette and from there to the PC, this could also help you establish whether the problem is infcat a sound card one.

 

Hope this helps,

Chris :)

[paulears]

SM58's are not the most incredibly sensitive mics either.

 

Sennheiser E835 and E845 are more sensitive than SM58's so this can have something to do with it.

 

When connecting a '58 with an XLR - mono (I presume) Jack and then connecting it to a jack input, then you will get a much lower output because jack inputs are expecting to "see" line level - which is a higher voltage than mic level.

 

Which is why tomlyall suggested it was this that was the problem.

 

 

In a reverse situation, you should never plug a guitar directly into a mic (XLR) input without using a DI box. If you do, the mic input is like: "Aarghh! so much voltage, so much voltage, what should I do?! Aarghh!" then you are then at risk of the following happening to your mic preamp for that channel: BANG!

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Si

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right - let's get this correct.

 

XLR-jack is fine. all you are doing is unbalancing it. For a shortish cable, no problems. Of course you lose hum rejection and a a negligable loss in level, but it's ok. The issue with low end soundcards is that the output of a dynamic mic (an SM58 actually comes between the two quoted Sennheisers) is just too low. Most condensers have a higher output level. The original post seems to indicate that the output of the SM58 needs to be recorded via the soundcard, but there is an option to use the line level input on the card, and use the Tascam as a mic amp. This seems a perfectly good solution. You'll also gain on the s/n stakes as the mic inputs on the Tascam are not too bad at all. To answer the original question - a dynamic mic doesn't need power at all to work- it is a mechanical transducer, converting sound energy into electrical energy. Most hand mics are designed to be shouted into, so the output isn't exactly huge. The sliders you are talking about could be those on the computer screen, working the soundcard, or the ones on the Tascam - don't know. Quality wise - XLR-XLR or XLR jack is the same. The difference is simply balanced or unbalanced connection - this doesn't relate to 'sound' quality, but does allow better end signal quality. Maybe another post if anyone really wants this explained)

 

So to sum up,boost the mic output with the Tascam, take the line out from it into the line in on the desk. Make sure the level meters on the Tascam show decent levels, and no red on the display - adjust the line input on the soundcard to give a similar level. Don't forget that the sound card input is stereo, so you may need to make up a 2 phono - stereo 3.5m jack lead, else one channel will be shorted out.

 

The Tascam is also happy to have balanced mic inputs on the XLR or unbalanced MIC input on the jacks - the input gain control has a wide enough range to accept mic and line levels with NO PROBLEMS. It is quite possible on most professional style equipment to plug balanced line level into XLR inputs when the gain range is wide enough - some makes put an input pad switch available, to help with line instead of mic level signals. I've never heard a mic input go bang when a guitar has been plugged in direct - in fact, I've never heard a mic input go bang ever!

 

You CAN plug a guitar into a mic level input, but it usually sounds poo because the pickup is a high impedance source and the mic input is low. The effect is usually a very dull, muddy sound which doesn't happen with a DI box as it provides the impedance conversion.

Phew!

[Mr.Si]

It can also blow up the pre's if you're not lucky, because DI's are voltage matching devices as well as impedance matching devices as well as balancing devices

 

Well, I'd never recommend it anyway!

 

:)

[paulears]

on what evidence do you base this statement. A guitar pickup is a coil energised by a moving string - how would this take out a preamp? all of my mixers are quite happy with a balanced input from a CD/MD player, with the gain down fairly low. I suspect Mr Yamaha and Mr Soundcraft possibly put a little more thought into their designs than you give them credit for.

[Mr.Si]

I hold my hand up if I'm wrong,

 

it's just what a pro-engineer told a group of us at a training session when he was explaining the jobs of a DI box - he could have been basing this statement on the document "Houses of Worship" by Shure, which, btw is a good document IMHO.

 

But then again it could have been just directly from him and not what he read in the affore(sp?) mentioned document.

 

 

But, he said it, no matter where it came from originally.

 

So I kinda took it as being "red"!

 

maybe it is not, Apologies if I am incorrect.

 

Si

 

P.S. I still will never advise it to anyone I talk to! :)