Where should sound come from?

[indyld]

OK, so it's a conversation I have with students and I'm interested in views.

 

You are in a theatre (say, end-on / pros for the sake of argument, but with a range of viewing angles to the stage) and you have some recorded sound effects, maybe some reinforcement of live spot FX/Foley or instruments and perhaps some music between scenes or backing tracks.

 

I find it quite distracting that in many theatres, due to the nature of auditorium design and practicalities, sound comes from "that speaker over there" and not where my head says it should. I encourage students to put speakers in the most "realistic" place for the sound (where practicable) and not just settle for some kind of "stereo" overhead pair that pumps everything from pre-show to steam trains through it. So far, we haven't got to individual vocalist speakers in stove pipe hats.

 

That's all very well, but where is music (underscore or accent) supposed to "come from"? And can you put up with steam trains emanating from half way up the wall on the left?

 

I have my own ways of deciding where sound comes from, depending on many factors naturally. What is your overall philosophy? And where do you think music should come from? Especially in an environment that isn't a "2D stare at a big live telly" kinda stage.

[kerry davies]

Good question.

From basics, amplified sound is an artificial concept to begin with. It is representative rather than factually reproductive. For instance we pan to drive the train from SL to SR and many other techniques. In that case I would suggest that sound should come from wherever the designer wishes it to come from and there are no set-in-stone rules regarding apparent source.

 

There is a debate to be had about general principles of allocating sound signals from specific sources to specific reproducers but I don't believe there can be a generic set of rules. One of my friends used to design sound for his wife's dance performances and he did wonderful things with sound moving around the performance and audience space which defied the "norm" yet became a major reason for attending the shows.

 

I think it may be that sound either "fits" the performance or it doesn't and since every single performance is a unique experience with a unique audience this "fitness" may just change from one day to the next. I know I hated having to have set levels on any run as the audience, ambient temperature and pressure and humidity affected the experience as much as if it were raining and everyone was wearing overcoats. This could be my personal "automation is the enemy of art" trip, I dunno?

[Ynot]

I'd say there are many answers to this one - and the 'right' one can depend very much on the style of the production/performance as well as the designer/director's requirements.

 

Bog standard dance shows, you'll get away with any SFX coming from anywhere, if I'm honest.

Straight drama, and I'd be looking to have concealed speakers in any and every place that the intended effect needs to emanate from.

 

Musical theatre is more forgiving in many cases, so perhaps SL, or SR, and possibly an option for USL or USR at a push.

 

Panto in my experience can in the main be just a case of left or right, though we have had occasions where specific SFX have been panned. eg in Robin Hood, a 'stray invisible arrow' pinged 4 times about the stage, and the 2 cast members followed the 'trajectory' with exaggerated head movements to lend authority to the panning. In the same show, Robin fires another invisible arrow from DSC onto a target at the back of the auditorium - Using a front/rear pan the 'whoosh - thud!' SFX made about 70% of the punters turn in their seats, which was the effect we were after.

[ramdram]

It could have a lot to do with how deep your pockets are and how many speakers/channels you can get hold of.

 

If you are able to have FX speakers hither and thither then you could do the pan thing with a railway loco say, in the recording. We did that for the "going to school on the train and stopping at various stations to pick up and finally disgorge the girls" in Daisy Pulls it Off. A bit of smoke and you would have thought you were in Waterloo in 1922.

 

We did the Lying Kind a while back and there was need for a small dog to bark off. Did not need to be stereo so I just dumped a speaker+amp doodad out behind the sash windows and played the CD through that.

 

Similarly for Absurd Person Singular, the first act calls for "continuous" rain during the party. Again, speaker behind the kitchen door in this instance, and simply wind up the level as door is opened and closed. And there was a dog FX on that one too.

 

The audience soon grasp the concept of door opening = SFX offstage and not through main FOH spkrs.

[indyld]

I suppose that instead of "realistic" I should have used Kerry's more appropriate "fittingness" for the particular show.

 

Dance is a particularly thorny one because the notion of where the music should come from isn't indicated by the situation, unless you are talking about screening of a dance/film thingy, in which case "the screen" is often the most fitting.

 

I guess we accept in live music that the sounds appears to come from "that picture 100s of metres away with tiny lil people scooting about on it", that the kick drum should hit us between the eyes, and that of the rythmn guitar player from somewhere off centre.

 

With a lighting analogy, we forgive that in many shows the lighting is not "real" in the sense that it comes from artificial sources that may or may not be angled like the sun is. As reinforced sound is a construct as much as anything, perhaps I should find it less distracting than I do.

 

Keep those thoughts coming.

[cedd]

Another trick a friend used recently to good effect was simply to use the stage foldback as the source of sound. These have the effect of "throwing" the sound onto the set. It only works in some circumstances, and you've got to watch bleed into mics, but it's a possibility if you're limited on outputs.

[Junior8]

With a lighting analogy, we forgive that in many shows the lighting is not "real" in the sense that it comes from artificial sources that may or may not be angled like the sun is. As reinforced sound is a construct as much as anything, perhaps I should find it less distracting than I do.

 

Good point. In the recent production of Uncle Vanya at the Minerva there was an incredibly distracting use of the sound of rain which went on an on. It's not needed. If the actor says 'oh it's raining' we all know. Similarly a few years ago in Trevor Nunn's Cyrano there was use, in the first scene, of ambient chat intended to make us think we were in a tavern or some such which, wherever it was meant to sit in the audio picture, merely sounded like 'leakage' from a crowded foyer behind where I was sitting. For me it's not a matter of where it should come from as whether it, artificial reinforcement or FX, should be there at all.

[Oldradiohand]

300 seater wedge shaped auditorium, community theatre with volunteer tech crew. (although there's a couple of part time ex TV/radio pros for sound and lights)

With only two speakers at the front available to me plus any foldback my default is mono on both speakers for effects (unless panned across or offstage hard left/right) plus some through the foldback for the performers' benefit. Phantom stereo doesn't cover a lot of the auditorium so the sound tends to fall back into the nearest speaker. Putting the effects through the foldback helps to anchor the sound to the middle for at least some of the audience.

Ambience is stereo with some on the foldbacks.

 

Music is stereo but narrowed down a bit, plus appropriate levels for the performers.

I also add stereo reverb to any singing 'cos the auditorium is a bit dead. and it helps to thicken up the vocals. A little reverb bled into the foldbacks helps with the performance as well.

Dialogue I try to keep unamplified unless the performers are really quiet, but I will try to reinforce the sound so it still sounds like it comes from the performer.

 

Continuous sound effects should be allowed to start loudly to establish them in the mind of the audience and then slowly fade away so they're not distracting.

 

Live music I usually keep mono or very narrow stereo plus stereo reverb. It's only reinforcement with vocals, keys, bit of guitar and sometimes a hint of drum overhead. It depends how many mics I can scrounge.

 

Yes, I'd love to have five channel effects!

 

 

 

[indyld]

Another trick a friend used recently to good effect was simply to use the stage foldback as the source of sound. These have the effect of "throwing" the sound onto the set. It only works in some circumstances, and you've got to watch bleed into mics, but it's a possibility if you're limited on outputs.

 

That's a trick that I've used (and advocated too), producing a source for the sound where there is nowhere to put a speaker but instead reflecting it off a set surface or hard wall. Maybe that's the lampie in me coming out and seeing reflecting angles like a pool player sees a shot off the rail.

 

I also find that putting the sound source behind the action / actors creates a natural balance between voice and effect, so the traditional "rain from outside the french windows" or equivalent is preferable to "rain blasting at me from either side of the pros" and I also like music to come from further upstage than the dancers where possible. It gets rid of that "there is the sound and there is the action, behind it" effect you get with many reinforcement systems.

 

I find the construct of pseudo stereo and phantom centre bizarre in many theatre settings, the reason that mono is a good rule of thumb for many sound designers. I've found that demonstrating the concept of phantom centre in a close in setting leaves students wondering what centre is, when they can clearly hear the sound coming from two different speakers and it becomes "centre" because we say it is so.

 

For those productions will little choice, obviously the steam train will have to come from the two carpet covered lumps mounted flat onto the pros wall and mostly firing at the theatre side walls and be panned accordingly. This is the nature of production sound in the real world for many and my ideal of a garden roller and a piece of corrugated iron upstage of the Ghost Train waiting room set isn't practicable.

 

But I'm also interested in the philosophy of it all and it's good to read everyone's ideas, regardless of their budgetary ability to achieve them.

[Junior8]

For those productions will little choice, obviously the steam train will have to come from the two carpet covered lumps mounted flat onto the pros wall and mostly firing at the theatre side walls and be panned accordingly. This is the nature of production sound in the real world for many and my ideal of a garden roller and a piece of corrugated iron upstage of the Ghost Train waiting room set isn't practicable.

 

Roller skate on tin bath might be though!

[Oldradiohand]

Never had a problem demonstrating phantom centre images - but I was using studio monitors in an acoustically treated room! Sometimes you have to rotate the students through the sweet spot. Sometimes you get the odd person who doesn't seem to be able to hear two speaker stereo but most people get it without any prompting.........unless your speakers are out of phasehttp://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

[indyld]

... Sometimes you have to rotate the students through the sweet spot...

 

Which is pointless in a theatre, hence their confusion. Especially when the speakers are quite wide apart. Stereo imaging is a studio "thing" really and works well enough for iPods and listening rooms. I find that students with a Music Tech background have to temporarily unlearn a lot of that in order to make meaningful progress in the live audio environment and in theatre sound design in particular. That and slap the DSP plug-in "problem solving" outta them ;)

 

The ones that don't come with those studio thoughts are more innovative, because they are more innocent.

[Oldradiohand]

I used to demonstrate how good phantom stereo can be and then explain that for most audiences (I was talking broadcast but it's equally applicable to theatre) it won't work. It's why film (and to some extent TV) went for a centre speaker based surround to lock the dialogue to the screen. One day (time allowing) I'll try a speaker at the back of the stage for some of the effects.

[dbuckley]

So far, we haven't got to individual vocalist speakers in stove pipe hats.

 

Individual vocal speakers can be the ultmate in reproduction though, see Martin Levan.

[the kid]

I used to demonstrate how good phantom stereo can be and then explain that for most audiences (I was talking broadcast but it's equally applicable to theatre) it won't work. It's why film (and to some extent TV) went for a centre speaker based surround to lock the dialogue to the screen. One day (time allowing) I'll try a speaker at the back of the stage for some of the effects.

 

I did a show a few years ago where they had something appear from a box on stage and we placed a monitor behind to have the noise from that point and it worked really well.

 

I have done it with things like doorbells and "distant" sound effects it really does add something to a scene/stage.