Active Pa Question

[jakiej]

Right, the youth center I work at, have been holding music events for the past year. And we have decided that we are in need of a new PA, the reason for it being active is that is will be taken from center to center and don't really want to have to take an amp rack.

 

We are looking for about 2.5 - 4k rig?

Do any of you have any suggestions of what to buy? We have been looking at the HK rigs, what do you think of them?

We haven't got a defined budget as we can get funding if we need more money but obviously don't want to fork out a complete fortune.

 

Thanks in advanced

[paulears]

I know this sounds odd, but the type of music you will be sticking through it is more important than stating Xk of watts. You often find that volume has very little to do with a system's rating in Watts. Lots of energy is used if you need deep solid rock steady bass - Bass speakers are very inefficient - they have lots of mass to move in the speaker cone, and an awful lot of air to shift. It's very easy to hang a BIG amp on a BIG bass speaker and find it not very loud. If you look at some of the full range active loudspeakers, you'll find their output level is pretty high for the power consumption - they're pretty efficient - so some of these could be astonishingly loud if you had 4K worth of them. If the 4K also has to drive some subs loudly, then it's going to be quieter - perhaps much quieter.

 

So how big is the room, what kind of music and what sources will be put through it. Then we can suggest things that match properly.

[jakiej]

It will have everything from live rock music, to djs and dubstep, to discos for under 18s, so it varies tremendously.

The venues will change but usually around the 150-200 capacity wise.

 

Hope this gives you better info?

[Matt Riley]

I'll do the obligatory blue room hires disclaimer! How great would it be if you could get a rig by D&B, funktion 1, Turbosound, L-acoustics or Nexo set up for you wherever you want it always with any little extras you need, where you don't have to worry about storing it, transporting it or it not getting returned? This is why hire companies exist - you would have to do about 40 gigs without any breakages or wear and tear for it to work out more cost effective to buy even the modestly priced kit!

 

If my sales pitch for the benefits of hiring didn't do it then I would probably invest in the least expensive system which would adequately cover the crowd given that it is unlikely to get that much love! Perhaps start by listening to 2x LD systems 122a tops with 4 x 15" subs - total thomann cost - about £2500. Don't skimp on the subs as that tends to be the bit which gives the perception of loudness and 'power'.

[themadhippy]

How great would it be if you could get a rig by D&B, funktion 1, Turbosound, L-acoustics or Nexo set up for you wherever you want it always with any little extras you need, where you don't have to worry about storing it, transporting it or it not getting returned? This is why hire companies exist - you would have to do about 40 gigs without any breakages or wear and tear for it to work out more cost effective to buy even the modestly priced kit

!

 

 

- total thomann cost - about £2500. D

 

so ere you can supply,transport and set up a D&B, funktion 1, Turbosound, L-acoustics or Nexo set up for £62.50 per gig? surley the diesel from yeovil to kent costs more than that

[Matt Riley]

I was running off a 4k budget. You are very right, I didnt get the sums correct there-

Running off SFL group's list price sheet:

Q7 x 2 = £64

Qsub x 2 = £42

D6 amp = £26

Total per day: £132 (without any discount applied)

 

4000/132 = 30.3

 

My sincere apologies - if you wanted to hire from a top of the foodchain provider like SFL without any discount applied you can get 30.3 gigs out of your £4000. From the conversations I've been having recently you might find that you could get it down to about £100 per day given the volume of gigs and the prices people are letting this kind of kit go out at.

 

Sadly, given that I don't own any hire stock the chances of me driving up from Yeovil with a rig are very limited! However if you can find a provider closer than Yeovil, you may find that it is very possible to sort out a deal which makes it worth holding off purchasing kit.

[timd]

The thing is, if you buy, you don't have to have a value discussion for every event. You can wheel it out of the cupboard as many times as you like and pay no extra for each time. The cost of hiring each time means that running free events can be difficult or impossible. The way grants work also goes against hiring.

[brainwave-generator]

Why are you getting involved in the hire/buy argument? He didn't say "I need X Y and Z at these times, what shall I do?" he said "I WANT TO BUY now help me". Suggesting a hire does not answer the question. At all.

 

For the kind of events they are doing, suggesting hiring a d&B Q-series shows a complete misunderstanding of their requirements.

 

OP - there are numerous systems well within your budget and I would be inclined to ring up their recommended retailers and discuss your needs. A lot of people seem to think that sales departments know nothing. This isn't at all true, if you ring companies like LMC Audio they're very knowledgeable about their products and what applications are suited by them. I would be looking at names like Mackie, RCF, HK, LD Systems, DB Technologies, etc.

 

Keeping it simple, 2 Mackie HD1531s and 2 Mackie HD1801s will give you a very impressive, room filling sound with plenty of headroom, solid cabinets, easy to use controls, etc; and will last for many years. Mackie are renowned for being well built products, you look a the 450s and 650s there's still hundreds of them in use all over the place in bars and clubs etc despite getting all sorts of abuse. That lot will come in at just about the £4k mark, probably a bit less (enough to buy yourself the cables and some nice padded covers) and you're sorted. Due to Mackie's distribution network you'll likely be able to get them from one of the LA's authorised suppliers too, I know how much of a pain that can be.

 

I stand by the concept of buying one quality product for many years use rather than buying cheap and replacing it all the time. Especially as it'll always go wrong at a bad time, never when you've time to sort it out. I'm not saying the Mackie is "the one" but get yourself something along those lines and you'll be more than well enough equipped to do whatever you want to do.

[laolu]

Maybe it's just that I love my Mackies to pieces. I bought a pair of SRM450 more than ten years ago, never had any trouble with them. Usually, I add a Behringer sub via an old QSC amp and an even older Rane active X-over. The whole thing cost me less than 2,000 your money (including racks and cables) and consists of several used items, only the Mackies were new. Usually this set is enough with indoor events for about 150 souls, any kind of music. If I need more ummpf, I add a pair of Wharfedale svp15 via another old QSC, and maybe a second sub.

 

If the place where you work allows you to buy 2^nd hand stuff, I'd say go for it.

 

What didn't come up yet is: Do you already have a console?

 

 

Norbert

[paulears]

when we get into the hire buy argument, which we always seem to, people often forget that certain organisations have precarious finances, that perhaps mean that one year they have four thousand quid to spend, and the year after, nothing at all. Income is dependent on grants, local authorities, lottery bids - all that kind of stuff. Even small amounts for hire charges may simply not be available. You see this problem all the time - people who have excellent PA systems but cannot afford to replace an SM58 when it is lost. I suspect for this particular case, if they have the funds available, buy decent stuff now and hang on to it. Next year, even a mains cable could be impossible!

 

When I was teaching, we had an unofficial equipment graveyard - really nice equipment that failed, but there was no money to fix. They had to hide it all away because there would have been hell to pay. Video cameras scrapped for the price of a new head drum, a large audio mixer scrapped because they lost the power supply - crazy stuff like that.

 

Even radio mic racks where a DA failed re-wired to use the existing DA for all receivers, connected one RF in only - because they couldn't buy a new one.

 

In these cases, they had use of great kit for a year or two before dropping out of service, the money for a hire for each event would have been impossible!

[Jack B Drury]

Im looking into getting funding for one of these at the moment, thought it might be of interest to this post!

http://www.studiospares.com/pa-systems/studiospares-silver-pa-package/invt/250120/?htxt=42w43hMywhqfmP7%2B6SIBRVukqIrfrcXSTUxbCE5RD%2BooWSrnPEU9By87YaC%2FcfbmA%2Bivdldsmq1M%0AW%2BHIF%2BPBlQ%3D%3D

TA

Jack D

[Skdimark]

If you want to go active and get good results, I would recommend RCF equipment since they're pretty loud and would do you for 150-200 kids playing whatever no problem.

 

As you will be getting a grant (and who knows how much that will be), I'm trying to go for a cheap solution so it's not going to be active.

 

A pair of these:

 

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_tp_118_800.htm which cost 620 pound

 

and a pair of these:

 

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_achat_112_m.htm which will cost 460 pound

 

one of these:

 

http://www.thomann.de/gb/tamp_proline_3000.htm 400 pound

 

and a dsp so you can limit, tune the eq etc:

 

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tracks_ds_24.htm 130 pound/

 

This would do you very nicely, in my opinion, and be quite portable as well. Throw in the speakon to speakons and a small mixer (though I assume you have a mixer already from your old rig) and it will only cost you about 1650 pound. This would also suit you for battle of the bands, etc.

 

If you want to go active however, there is active versions of those achat 112's call achat 112ma which riun for about 40 pound more each and you could replace the bins I mentioned with these: http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_ta18.htm

 

So the active route would cost you about 1200pound if you did it that way, but the other system, I feel, is more expandable.

 

Hope that was of some help!

[Paul J Need]

You need to get out an listen to lots of boxes - or ideally get firms to come to you and set up a system in your venue. There is no substitute for hearing the boxes in the room if this can be arranged. Asking people to suggest loads of different types of equipment if a reasonal start but - go hear them, smell them, touch them, play your favourite CD through them, lift them............ then you will be closer to finding a system which you like, does the job, and hoepfully within budget. Don't just buy a speaker on line without at least being in the same room as one yeah? :)

[S&L]

reading through no one seems to have answered one of the original questions. Re HK gear, yes they are very decent though others here more experienced will be able to give you examples of comparisons to other gear.

the diversity of use means you want a 'best fit' rather than a perfect fit for any one event.

suggestions of trying on demos are something you should look into if you can but you can't beat working with the gear hand on for an event.

Paul is as usual spot on and it makes far more sense to buy with a grant than to hire. much easier to get the funding for capital than running projects.

for my tuppeny worth I would look around for the sort of rig you are thinking of buying (and HK is as good as any for my ears) and then I would look for someone to hire a similar rig for a one off event. Once set up you will be able to try the rig at your leisure, maybe find issues you haven't thought about, try it out with say a band set up and set up early so you can try some dj cd's. that way you tick the following:

tried the gear you were thinking of

tried it in a venue you are using

tried it with a band

tried it with a dj

and all for the price of a night's hire. If all goes well you know you are likely to be making a sound investment. if it doesn't you have lost the cost of a night's hire and you can rethink your box choice