eviljonny Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Hi, My friends band have been gigging at some local venues and would like to have some lighting to go with the show. I have been doing some learning (enjoying it very much I might add) about DMX and controlling stage lighting. The plan is to have 4 moving heads, 4 Par 56 cans and 4 police lights controlled with a relay pack (so we only need 1 universe). We have 1 moving head and 2 par cans right now, we got these so I could get learning how to do this stuff. I've been using freestyler to get a feel for what you can do and for coming up with ideas for shows for the songs. We want to move forward a bit and actually get the rig going now and the part I'm missing is something to control it live at gigs. We'll be lugging this gear round with us so something not so big would be good and we're looking at a very, very low budget for the controller (up to about 300 quid, thomann had a bunch of things in this price range but I've no idea if any of them are usable). Ideally I'd like something that will allow me to design the show offline and run different cues live during the show but everything I can see that comes with software to design the show offline seems to be expensive (for our budget). I had a read of the FAQ and get the feeling we will have to settle for running the show from a PC with a USB controller, to that end I was looking at using MagicQ with one ofthe USB DMX controllers. What do people think of that? Any suggestions for a better way to go? We are all very new to trying to do lighting but I'm eager to learn hard and can put in the time to try and learn whatever software/desk we might end up with. Thanks Jonny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossmck Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 My personal opinion (unless your act suits it) is to drop the police lights - they always look a bit out of place now. I'd also think about more than 4 pars - it's also worth considering what you\'re doing about light from the front - its worth having something that doesn't move and change colour to ensure you're always lit. Also a lot of small bands now use LED pars - these might be worth considering as well, since you wouldn't need dimmers for them, and many of the newer generations of reasonably low budget LED PARs can still produce a pretty punchy light output. Anyway, enough on my own two cents on lighting design for small bands.... For control I think MagicQ would be a good bet - get the cheap Magic DMX USB output (£10 but only works for 5 hours at a time) and see what you think of it . Another good, but pricier, software solution for bands etc is LimeLIGHT used by The Stage Bus and a few others, which has a bit of a simpler learning curve if you're new to lighting and a very simple interface. MagicQ might be better for you if you want to move onto a 'proper' console in a future or start doing lighting for bigger events as it gives you a better introduction to professional lighting control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photographic08 Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 As far as control is concerned I'd say MagicQ or LSC Clarity would be your best bets. Personally I prefer Clarity. Then in the future you could expand by getting laptop wings etc to have an actual control surface. As for your lighting equipment I agree with rossmck and suggest you get some more PARs, in the long run they'll be alot more useful that the budget movers you're probably thinking of buying, especially if you get a few LED ones as well, then you could have a few lighting the actual gig on one permanent setting, and then the others pointing at the audience or wherever running chases. Another good point for PARs is although in numbers they will take up more space than the movers, they will be lighter to carry about, and you can get wheeled suitcase type things to carry them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h.j.a.clarke Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 +1 for MagicQ! I have a couple of them and use them on smaller jobs and they work a treat... plus if you learn MagicQ then you will be able to use any Chamsys desk in the future! I've specced a few small band/ disco packages with smallish budgets and agree that you get a lot for your money when it comes to LED pars. In terms of movers: LED source profiles such as the stairville MH X-25 are surprisingly bright and providing that you are using them alongside other LED kit and not 1k pars they are great for the money. I have 10 of them and have had very few problems with them- one of their DMX cards stopped working but I called thomann and they sent me a free return label and I got the repaired unit back within a week no questions asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.k.roberts Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Well I'm going to go against the grain a bit here, based on your budget, your experience, the equipment you describe and what you want to do with it. I'd say that if you've used Freestyler and it does what you want it to do (and I believe it will), stick with it for now. What I think you will need though is a physical control surface (however well programmed you think the show is). Freestyler will respond to any generic MIDI controller, so perhaps a Behringer BCF 2000 http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_bcf_2000.htm or, even cheaper, one of the Korg Nano gizmos http://www.thomann.de/gb/korg_nanokontrol_2_black.htm and a cheap and cheerful MIDI to USB converter will give you that control and be well under your budget, leaving you enough change for a USB to DMX device. It's clearly not the 'Rolls Royce' solution, but it's in budget and fit for purpose. Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenalien Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I'd go even further than the previous poster, and say ditch the laptop altogether, and buy one of these - http://www.thomann.de/gb/elation_dmx_operator_ii.htm - dead easy to program and use, although you do need the actual kit connected up to it. No computer to crash unexpectedly, or to take time to reboot; all the 'hands on' control you're likely to need, and cheap enough to leave cash for a spare (you can also use a spare as a backup, because you can copy one desk's programming into another) - and still be within your budget.By all means go for a computer-based solution once your lighting rig grows so large that a small desk like this won't cope, but sometimes the simple solutions are best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviljonny Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 Thanks for all the responses. The person funding the rig would prefer we didn't go with a pc based solution if possible (and not having the dangerous of a laptop would be nice) so the low end desks seem like a possibility. I was having a look at the elation desks on Thomann, I think I'd prefer one with a joystick and so I was looking at the DMX Operator Pro. Is this ok in comparison to the Operator 2? If we do go PC I will defintiely go with the MagicQ I think. I'll have a play with the software. I definitely don't want to run freestyler to do real gigs, I find it's too buggy, often I'll click to change cue and it will do something odd. It doesn't feel robust enough for me to be happy with running a live show from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peza2010 Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Personally I have always found joysticks to be more trouble than they are worth especially without a "fine" control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviljonny Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 Personally I have always found joysticks to be more trouble than they are worth especially without a "fine" control. The Operator Pro does have a fine button, it also has a CF slot which the operator 2 doesn't. I think I'd quite like to be able to keep shows saved on a CF card as well as internally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peza2010 Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I'd suggest having a play with the joystick type, vs the encoder type before spending any money even with fine control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timsabre Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Are there any cheap controllers with rotary encoders for pan/tilt instead of joystick? I don't think I've ever seen any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfmjohn Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I've used an Elation Magic 260 in a club environment which has encoders for pan & tilt and I'll be honest - it was a horrible experience. With the cheap desks you store & playback entire looks as steps in a chase so you can't program an LED par chase and a moving head shape separately and play them back together. This means you spend hours programming and end up with shows which are completely fixed. Its very restrictive - especially if you're already used to the nice features of software systems like palettes & shape generators. I swapped out the club desk for MagicQ and it made life so much easier. I picked up an old IBM-era Thinkpad from eBay for about £80 plus the £10 Chamsys dongle and that setup walks all over the cheap controllers IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peza2010 Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Perhaps encoders was thee wrong word for me to use. But budget desks do have wheels (usually scroll wheels rather than rotary encoders) http://www.thomann.de/gb/elation_dmx_operator_ii.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timsabre Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 No, you're right, they are encoders, I hadn't come across that unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenalien Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 With the cheap desks you store & playback entire looks as steps in a chase so you can't program an LED par chase and a moving head shape separately and play them back together. That's certainly the case, and is the main disadvantage of this type of desk, along with the lack of fixture profiles - you do need the DMX charts for each fixture. However, as you can store 240 different looks, then build 6 different chases from any of the looks, it's still versatile enough for a small lighting rig - and you also have all of the 8-look banks that can run as chases, and also the sound and timer triggering, which may be rather crude, but can still be useful. In addition, you have manual override, so you can still indulge in a spot of busking if you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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